What needs to be done to improve TF3?

[Sparky Prime]

Yet McCarthy himself had said the pacing was where he wanted it, even with the 12 issues arrangement. And I don't see that McCarthy really had anything more to say than "look at how kewl the Decepticons are rampaging Earth with out the Autobots". The focus of this "full" story should have been on some of the points it brings up, but sadly falls very far short. Despite it's own problems, ROTF I'd say is a better story.

[BWprowl]

Despite it's own problems, ROTF I'd say is a better story.

You're kidding, right? ROTF may be entertaining in your opinion, but it has so many 'Second Bridge' moments of idiocy that it can't even qualify as a better story. Why does Jetfire walk out of the Smithsonian (located in the heart of Washington D.C.) into a big open field filled with airplanes? Why does Sam use the Allspark fragment to revive Jetfire instead of Prime? Why does Jetfire teleport them all the way to the desert, only to tell them "Okay, now wander around on your own for miles until you find the Matrix"? If the Primes wanted to stop the Fallen from using the Sun Harvester, why the HELL did they kill themselves to seal up the Matrix a block from the doomsday device it was supposed to activate? Couldn't they have just...flown into space with it or something? That would have made way more sense.

I could think of more, and you know it.

[Sparky Prime]

You're kidding, right? ROTF may be entertaining in your opinion, but it has so many 'Second Bridge' moments of idiocy that it can't even qualify as a better story.

Nope. I genuinely believe ROTF is a better story than AHM. And I certainly don't agree that it can't qualify as a better story.

-Jetfire walking out of the Smithsonian in D.C. and into the bone yard in Arizona isn't really an issue of the story. Certainly it is an issue of locations used but I wouldn't really call that a mistake given they were supposed to still be in D.C. despite the real world change of locations. They needed a big open air field with a bunch of old planes to talk to Jetfire in, so they made it happen.
-There are a number of reasons for Sam not using the Allspark fragment to revive Prime. At the time Prime was killed, Sam was a little preoccupied running for his life, not to mention he didn't actually have the fragment on him at the time, Mikaela did. Then they were hiding out because of The Fallen's announcement to the world and the military had flown Prime's body somewhere else, out of their reach. Plus, I don't think Sam was actually planning on using the fragment to revive Jetfire, seeing how it flew out of his hands and they even appeared to go look for it until they noticed the Decepticon symbol on him.
-Were you paying attention at this part? Jetfire knew from the clues Sam gave him to get them to the desert in Egypt, but as he explained (and as we saw from pieces literally falling of him), he was too old to be of much use to them in the search from there, so he handed the rest of mission off to them.
-From what we saw, the other Prime's pretty much just took the Matrix and ran. I don't think they would have really had the time to get far off world before The Fallen caught up, let alone hide it somewhere out in space. They did however have enough time to hide it anywhere on Earth, and that was pretty effective given the Decepticons never did actually find it until Sam did with the knowledge the Allspark downloaded into his brain.

So yeah... I don't consider any of these to be issues in the movie at all. But I'm sure you could think of more. As I have said several times I agree there are problems, but not as many or as serious as some would suggest.

[Onslaught Six]

(Gah, how fast is the sun setting during the opening of the first movie. And, how quickly is it coming up after teh frat party in the second?!?!?!!?)

I know, older post, but I'm trudging back through the thread and thought I'd mention this--why does everyone assume that that scene takes place locally? We have no idea where that graveyard is. At the time, Prime and the others were still on the west coast (I'm assuming?) while Sam was on the east. There's no reason to assume that Bumblebee didn't drive out several hours to meet Prime halfway somewhere.

The extra bridge in issue 8 is much more problematic. I actually missed it the first time through. But, it is beyond me how the artist could have read the script he was drawing and still
thought it would make sense to have a second bridge there.

It was a background artist, filling in and helping out. The artist was likely given no direction other than "Draw Cybertron."

Plus, I don't think Sam was actually planning on using the fragment to revive Jetfire, seeing how it flew out of his hands and they even appeared to go look for it until they noticed the Decepticon symbol on him.

No. Wheelie even clearly tells Sam to use the shard, if I remember right.

[Sparky Prime]

No. Wheelie even clearly tells Sam to use the shard, if I remember right.

I recall Wheelie telling him to just point the shard at Jetfire. Either way, it doesn't mean Sam intended to loose that shard like that in reviving Jetfire.

[Dominic]

Obviously there is a huge difference, but no matter how competent someone/something is, mistakes do happen, even with the best of things.

And, a large number of mistakes, (along with just plain bad writing), are reasonable grounds to say that a story is not the "best of things".

Nobody is denying that mistakes happen. But, how many really stupid mistakes does it take to diminish something? How much praise can you heap on something with as much "room for improvement" as RotF has?


I have noticed that the entertainment defense is used to defend some of the most incompetently written/told stories, which tend to have basis for a legitimate defense otherwise. The entertainment defense is pretty much saying that having any expectation of competence, or even (*gasp*) some intelligence, is unreasonable.

Yet McCarthy himself had said the pacing was where he wanted it, even with the 12 issues arrangement. And I don't see that McCarthy really had anything more to say than "look at how kewl the Decepticons are rampaging Earth with out the Autobots". The focus of this "full" story should have been on some of the points it brings up, but sadly falls very far short. Despite it's own problems, ROTF I'd say is a better story.

The problem with the pacing was that McCarthy was writing for the trade. This is common. And, it is even understandable. (As McCarthy said, he wants to look back on it as a complete story, rather than just saying how good one issue was.)

I have written at length about the ideas in AHM. I have no frame of reference for illustrating them further. On the other hand, McCarthy is hardly writing about anything terribly obscure. Most people are at least familiar with basic concepts like leadership or organizational behavior, even if they do not use those specific terms. I am not seeing any real ideas in RotF, let alone any ideas handled well.

They needed a big open air field with a bunch of old planes to talk to Jetfire in, so they made it happen.

Are you saying that we should assume that the Smithsonian in context with RotF has a storage yard behind it, or that "it is okay because the writers needed the characters to magically appear in another region so they made the characters just appear magically in another region because they needed it to happen"?

I know, older post, but I'm trudging back through the thread and thought I'd mention this--why does everyone assume that that scene takes place locally? We have no idea where that graveyard is. At the time, Prime and the others were still on the west coast (I'm assuming?) while Sam was on the east. There's no reason to assume that Bumblebee didn't drive out several hours to meet Prime halfway somewhere.

A cross country drive would take more than a few hours. Time and distance in Bay's movies are very fluid, and it leads to weird inconsistencies like this. Based on dialogue from Leo about only being in college for two days, BB and Sam's round trip could not have been that long, even if BB gave the ungrateful twerp a ride home. And, is Prime really going to drag somebody too far out of their way to ask a favor of them? (Well, maybe Optimus jerk from the movie, but.....)



Dom
-finally gets back here after a week.

[Sparky Prime]

Nobody is denying that mistakes happen. But, how many really stupid mistakes does it take to diminish something? How much praise can you heap on something with as much "room for improvement" as RotF has?

I could ask the same of you with All Hail Megatron. Ultimately, again, I think it goes back to our own opinions and perceptions. I don't see that it has as many "stupid mistakes" as you believe it does. And I wouldn't exactly say I've "praised" the movie. Certainly, I enjoyed it, even called it a good movie, but at the same time, I've said I think it could also be better.

The entertainment defense is pretty much saying that having any expectation of competence, or even (*gasp*) some intelligence, is unreasonable.

As I've previously explained already, and you're obviously still failing to understand, that's not at all what I meant when I said this is a movie made for entertainment.

I have written at length about the ideas in AHM. I have no frame of reference for illustrating them further. On the other hand, McCarthy is hardly writing about anything terribly obscure. Most people are at least familiar with basic concepts like leadership or organizational behavior, even if they do not use those specific terms. I am not seeing any real ideas in RotF, let alone any ideas handled well.

And I don't see the "ideas" presented in AHM as you suggest them to be. I see some potential things but then they lack any sort of follow up or explanations or otherwise jump ahead destroying any sort of build up McCarthy had created which, to me, ruins the story. RotF on the other hand is simply a story about saving the world from an ancient threat that links the Transformers history to our planet much earlier than previously thought.

Are you saying that we should assume that the Smithsonian in context with RotF has a storage yard behind it,

Yes, that what the movie shows us.

[Dominic]

What qualifies as an idea? How are you defining the term?


And, as you present the entertainment defense, (or as I understand it), being entertained at best does not require, and arguably excludes, thinking.

Dom

[Sparky Prime]

What qualifies as an idea? How are you defining the term?

Idea is a loaded word. I tend to think of it along the lines of a plan, scheme, an opinion, a thought and so on...

And, as you present the entertainment defense, (or as I understand it), being entertained at best does not require, and arguably excludes, thinking.

Which is why I said: obviously you're failing to understand my use of it.

[donosaur]

Entertainment involves being satisfied, something which ROTF does not deliver. I cannot speak for AHM.