Is Transformers an emotionally-stunted franchise?

[Gomess]

If they don't have sex then there not a romantic/whatever couple.

Not sure where to begin with this one. But I'm afraid you're wrong.

Kids in school have guy buddies friends all the time,should we start classifying them as couples.

No. But if two guys are explicitly stated to be a couple, as Rewind and Chromedome have been, then yes, we should classify them as a couple. Because they are one.

when a human needs to un-wind & forget about his bad day he has sex to relax

Nnnno. I didn't think we'd have to address this sort of thing in this thread, but your understanding of what sex is "for" is a real headshaker for me. Besides which...

this doesn't mean the G-1 Transformers are capable of the similar sexual behavior & sexual reproduction abilities. The BW/BM Maximals & Predacons are micromaster sized with re-engineered different bodies than the G-1 TF's,these newer tech bodies might have the right stuff that makes them capable of sexual behavior traits & sexual reproduction traits.

Once again, Chromedome and Rewind are not *sexualised*. They have been given sexualities, but that's a completely different thing to a sex drive.

Or do you honestly believe that guys get together our of a subconscious urge to propagate their species? That'd be a fantastic position to take in a gay marriage debate.

[andersonh1]

@jroberts332 Hey James. A friend of mine dropped MTMTE because he considered Chromdome&Rewind "pandering to shippers." I disagree. Thoughts?

.@OnslaughtSix Most fiction features couples, why not MTMTE? (There's a much longer response, but that can wait 'til I leave the title.)

I think I'd want to hear the longer comments, honestly, because "most fiction features couples" is a bit self-evident since most fiction features human beings who, by and large, couple. Transformers features giant asexual shape changing robots from outer space.

I'm not saying they can't have emotional bonds, I'm just saying I'd expect more of a reason than "why not?". And it looks like there is one, we just don't know what it is at the moment.

[Gomess]

Well, what it really looks like is an author who's not at liberty to give his real opinions- whatever they may be- on a story while he's still being paid to write it. We'll all just have to be patient!

[BWprowl]

.@OnslaughtSix Most fiction features couples, why not MTMTE? (There's a much longer response, but that can wait 'til I leave the title.)

This is honestly the best answer I could've hoped for, since it goes along perfectly with how JT opened this thread: Why shouldn't fiction like this feature characters in emotional connections and relationships?

It's like, when a comic has Optimus Prime shoot Soundwave in the friggin' face, no one jumps up and down and declares that it must be 'pandering' to people who want to see dudes get shot in the friggin' face. When we see TFs sitting around discussing government policy and sanctions in the wake of peacetime and all that, no one harps that it's 'pandering' to political enthusiasts. So why is it that as soon as Roberts decides to write two characters in a relationship (something that has been in all manner of fiction and storytelling pretty much since the dawn of time) you get people rising up against it like it has absolutely no real reason to be in the story there's no other reason he could have put it in there other than to appeal to a group of fringe fans? Why is it readers of series like 'Transformers' can handle all manner of story content and concepts, but as soon as the idea of characters forming emotional bonds and connections comes up, it's suddenly a step too far?

[Gomess]

Because cooties

Tigs has made me wonder if maybe the majority of adult TF fans don't see it as a WaRrIoR rAcE kind of franchise, and as such, maybe there really isn't that much of a demand for romantic plots.

It's unfortunate, since the average person on the street probably wouldn't assume an adult TF fan would have a mind for Relationships, and here we are proving them right.

[andersonh1]

Tigs has made me wonder if maybe the majority of adult TF fans don't see it as a WaRrIoR rAcE kind of franchise, and as such, maybe there really isn't that much of a demand for romantic plots.

That's exactly what it is. It's a boy's action figure toyline built around conflict. The war and fighting are an integral core concept of Transformers. Romance isn't. It's a sign of how much the fiction has expanded over the years that we see steps taken in that direction at all, honestly.

I don't think there is much demand for romantic plotlines. There are plenty of other franchises and media to go to for that sort of thing.

[Gomess]

The war and fighting are an integral core concept of Transformers.

Maybe I see a difference between "fighting" and "war". Sure it's always been an atypical boys' action show with lots of physical conflict, but it never really used to be about *war*, did it? I mean, we were told there was a "war" going on, but that was just an excuse to have laser fights.

And really, TF is only just starting to get to grips with the concept of war, particularly the surrounding politics and the soldier's experience. And if a complex subject like that is worth exploring, then so is romance. Boys are just as likely to experience romance as they are politics and the philosophy of violence.

Anderson, do you dislike romantic elements in TF like Dom and Tigs seem to, or are you just surprised- pleasantly or not- to see them explored in the franchise? 'Cos if it's the latter, yeah, I am too. But I genuinely believe that all age-appropriate subjects have a place in all fiction. Well, I mean it's worth trying to explore them from the writer's perspective; whether the audience takes to them or not is another story, and from what I've seen ReDome has been well received.

[Dominic]

For the record, there are more responsible grown up things that I should probably be doing with my time. (Of course, to my credit, I did look in to registering for the A+ Certification test today. Somebody at the testing center told me that he would look in to finding out about the voucher I should have gotten. He said that I would know by Monday, and to wait on registering until then. 1 business day is not going to kill me.)

Yes I may have heard of it 8|

Hey, I am trying to be culturally sensitive. I know that British TV and VCRs are all weired, with your PAL system and your accents. Maybe you were not able to get "Friends" in England because it was not filmed in PAL format. As far as I know, PAL only applies to your crazy VCRs. But, for all I know, it applies to *everything*, kind of like you called "GI Joe" "Action Force". Maybe you called "Friends" "Chums" or "Mates".


(No, seriously though, I did not know if the show was known in the UK.)

Not following this. Are you implying that (a) this joke was 90% accurate and (b) people with no friends aren't worth writing for...? I'm genuinely confused.

That was kind of where the joke was going. And, I see a number of comic fans (not just transfans) who this does seem to apply to.

I personally know fans who are unable to discuss fiction (let alone non-fiction) past a certain level. They do not seem to engage in any deep thoughts on interactions. They want comics in general to be stuck in the 80s or earlier. They have vivarious attachments to the characters, but less apparently to real people/things. I really do not want to be seeing more stuff pitched to them, if only because I ain't interested in reading it.

Such as? Serious.

I gave examples in the post about unmet needs. And, I would argue that TF is better suited to addressing questions of war or politics.

(And, again, I would concede that this is getting more in to intellectual, rather than emotional development. But, if we are going to talk about fiction addressing an unmet need, it is a fair point to bring up.)

I'm really not accusing Dom of homophobia. But I can really see no other difference between Chromewind (Redome?) and... Blackbolt? Silverachnia? than gender. At best, BW's resident "OTP" was an awkward, clichéd attempt to give depth to its strongest female character. At worst, it was the late 90s equivalent of exactly what Dom's imagining.

The situation with Blackarachnia and Silverbolt (or Optimus and Elita) is different for being so generic. My reaction in both cases was more or less "okay, this is the obligatory and not terribly interesting pairing up". The Rewind/Chromedome thing seemed like Roberts going out of his way, which just made it worse in my eyes.

From my understanding Transformers robots don't need sex nor companionship because their a warrior race that get the emotions/desires/purpose in life they need from fighting,upgrading & killing.

Not sure what iteration of the franchise you got that from.

And, for the record, I am not saying that TFs has to be "all war all the time".

I decided to ask him.

https://twitter.com/jroberts332/status/ ... 1361417216

Well, hey.

And, the laziest man on this board shames us by doing the obvious thing.....

If you hate Twitter:

I do.

Given the 140 character restraint, I think I worded my original question well enough.)

So basically, I get two things out of this: Roberts wanted to explore a pair of characters who were in a relationship (regardless of gender and/or gender roles) and he still has plans as to why this is important (hence "that can wait until I leave the title.")

You did. I would be interested in hearing Robert's extended comments on this, and other things in the book. My biggest over-all complaint about "More Than Meets The Eye" is that it seems to be aimless and vapid. (This is in addition to my complaints about the art and the Chromedome/Rewind thing specifically.) When Roberts does leave, his comments might be worth seeking out.

If they don't have sex then there not a romantic/whatever couple.

Not sure where to begin with this one. But I'm afraid you're wrong.

In fairness to Tiger, I think he is saying that "in an adult relationship, it is not unreasonable to assume sex between the parties".

This is not comletely out of bounds, though it probably could have been phrased better.

Nnnno. I didn't think we'd have to address this sort of thing in this thread, but your understanding of what sex is "for" is a real headshaker for me. Besides which...

Yeah, lets not go down this particular cringe-inducing road.

(I mean, we also booze, drugs, TV, comic books, toys and internet forums to help us forget about the stress in our daily lives.)

Why is it readers of series like 'Transformers' can handle all manner of story content and concepts, but as soon as the idea of characters forming emotional bonds and connections comes up, it's suddenly a step too far?

Again, it is a question of there being other things to be done with TF as a whole and human type relationships just does not seem right in this particular book. Again, I read "Earth 2", which features a gay character, (albeit one whose boyfriend got killed in his origin). I also read a fair amount of Bendis, who is known for his "kitchen table" discussion scenes.

Tigs has made me wonder if maybe the majority of adult TF fans don't see it as a WaRrIoR rAcE kind of franchise, and as such, maybe there really isn't that much of a demand for romantic plots.

There is a significant amount of evidence for this type of thing.

Roberts and Barber both deviate from the "all war all the time" template, but keep a certain amont of brand-cliche otherwise prominent. Roberts is using all manner of obscure characters in wacky scenarios. Barber is setting his book on Cybertron.

But, the guys who deviated by pitching high and not adhering to at least some TF cliches (particularly the more shallow and easy to identify stuff) got in hot water with fans. Guys like McCarthy and Costa are solid writers, but they pitched over fans heads and were called out for it.

Boys are just as likely to experience romance as they are politics and the philosophy of violence.

I dare say they are more likely to see romance than they are to see warfare, at least in countries where TFs are commonly available.

But, as I said, it just comes across as forced/pandering in this case. The impression that I have, (and Roberts' long form comments may prove me wrong) is that Rewind and Chromedome got paired off to make an obligatory statement to the shippers and give the more stunted members of the fandom some kind of vicarious connection.

And, politics and warfare are important topics to understand.



Dom
-admits to being in a minority here....

[andersonh1]

Anderson, do you dislike romantic elements in TF like Dom and Tigs seem to, or are you just surprised- pleasantly or not- to see them explored in the franchise? 'Cos if it's the latter, yeah, I am too. But I genuinely believe that all age-appropriate subjects have a place in all fiction. Well, I mean it's worth trying to explore them from the writer's perspective; whether the audience takes to them or not is another story, and from what I've seen ReDome has been well received.

I don't need to see them in Transformers fiction. Romance isn't what I read or watch Transformers for. I guess it all depends on how it's handled. It could work, or it could be an utter cringing disaster.

Do I want to see Chromedome and Rewind (or pick any combination you like) as a couple, exploring their feelings and having domestic issues? No, definitely not. Would some different take on long-term relationships, possibly exploring just what that would mean to a race like Transformers, be appropriate? Possibly. But I just can't picture Chromedome and Rewind taking a walk, or going on a date, or discussing the budget, or meeting the family, or any other typical couple activities. None of that makes any sense to me. Having Rewind call Chromedome "Domey" honestly made me cringe a bit. Cute little nicknames are another thing I just can't picture two Transformers doing.

I tend to lean towards "no, I don't want to see romance between Transformers". I think mostly the whole Chromedome/Rewind thing was fairly tasteful and restrained, up until the end anyway, so it mostly worked. I'm not sure Roberts could have taken it much futher though.

[BWprowl]

I personally know fans who are unable to discuss fiction (let alone non-fiction) past a certain level. They do not seem to engage in any deep thoughts on interactions. They want comics in general to be stuck in the 80s or earlier. They have vivarious attachments to the characters, but less apparently to real people/things.

And there’s a thing: How are these ‘fans’ ever going to make that progress if the fiction and writing they’re primarily taking in (in this case, Transformers comics) never illustrates genuine emotional connections? You say you want the fans to progress, to move on from 80’s-style storytelling and adherence to preset themes and ideas, but then you take issue with the comics themselves making that jump, seemingly purely on the basis of “It’s Transformers and Transformers shouldn’t have relationships in it” which is in itself a rather stunted view.

I really do not want to be seeing more stuff pitched to them, if only because I ain't interested in reading it.

A good question would be *why* don’t you want to read stories that include emotional closeness and relationship dynamics?

The situation with Blackarachnia and Silverbolt (or Optimus and Elita) is different for being so generic. My reaction in both cases was more or less "okay, this is the obligatory and not terribly interesting pairing up". The Rewind/Chromedome thing seemed like Roberts going out of his way, which just made it worse in my eyes.

Okay, so if Blackarachnica/Silverbolt and Optimus/Elita are too bland and obligatory, but Chromedome/Rewind is too forced or ‘going out of his way’, what’s the happy medium here? How could Roberts have handled writing a relationship in a way that you wouldn’t have complained about?

It’s weird, it almost seems like you’re complaining about the emotional aspects of the relationship being too gratuitous, the same way some people complained about the ultraviolence in LSotW.

But, as I said, it just comes across as forced/pandering in this case. The impression that I have, (and Roberts' long form comments may prove me wrong) is that Rewind and Chromedome got paired off to make an obligatory statement to the shippers and give the more stunted members of the fandom some kind of vicarious connection.

This is a big problem I’ve always had with this issue of yours, that it comes primarily from a ‘feeling’ or ‘impression’ that you get. *How* does it come across as forced, or as pandering? Do you actually have anything to back that idea up, or is your distaste for the portrayal of the relationship based almost entirely on a ‘gut feeling’ that you just ‘have’ about it? Especially since, as we’ve outlined numerous times before, the relationship actually has a ton of stuff written into it that ties into the larger concepts and ideas of the series as a whole. It’s hardly just inconsequential fanservice that Roberts threw in.

To me, if Roberts really wanted to pander with this, we’d actually see Chromedome and Rewind retracting their faceplates to make out, or opening a scene of the two of them in bed sharing intimate pillow talk.