Last Stand of the Wreckers discussion

[andersonh1]

So, issue #5 is here. Time to evaluate the issue and the series as a whole.

Issue 5: I'll try to be mostly spoiler free. Most of the big plot revelations have already occurred, but the truth behind what got Impactor locked up is revealed, and I guessed right for the most part, though we got some more details about that scenario that made things even worse. A few more characters die grisly deaths, and unless I missed something, one or two are unaccounted for in the end. Overlord gets a good deal of comeuppance from two different sources, though it's not nearly enough punishment for what he's done. I had wondered just how the Wreckers were going to defeat the unbeatable Overlord, and the method they use makes use of several plot elements and character traits that had been established earlier in the series, so I'll buy it. Verity gets a small but good role in the story, and appears to finally make it back to Earth at the end. I'm not sure I agree with her "moral of the story" though. Not after all the carnage.

It's a decent issue, which ends with the brutality, violence and characterization that has made this mini-series notable.

The series: It's hard to say how I feel about Last Stand of the Wreckers. I've enjoyed it, and every issue ends in a way that kept me wanting to know just what happens next. But I think I'm with Ironfist in saying that I prefer "exciting adventures" to the sort of carnage we've been treated to in LSOTW. Not that I don't enjoy a dark story from time to time, but at the end of it all, what was the point of the story? That the Decepticons have some real violent nutjobs in their ranks? We knew that. That they torture and murder their prisoners? I think we could have guessed that as well. That the Wreckers are the equivalent of the Suicide Squad? I hadn't really thought about it in those terms, but this story certainly drives that point home. Are we simply being shown why the Decepticons can't be allowed to win the war, because the horrors of Garrus-9 under Overlord would become the status quo everywhere? That's about the only real point I can think of to the story, and I would have to admit that Wreckers conveys it even better than even All Hail Megatron did.

We learned a lot about the Autobots and just what some of them are capable of, and I don't just mean Impactor. The story touches on their justice system and code, and on some of their dark secrets that Prowl would prefer to keep buried. All of that only adds to the dark tone and downer ending. I don't know... I enjoyed the series, but I feel like at the same time that it finally went too far into carnage and death in the end, and robbed us of a number of characters that would have been interesting to develop further. But given how it played out, I don't see how it could have ended any other way.

So I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, the storytelling, art and characterization were excellent, and the many ideas and use of continuity were first rate. On the other hand, all the violence and death has left kind of a bad taste in my mouth. I enjoyed the series for the most part, but I wonder if it didn't go on an issue too long, and carry the violence and death just too far.

[Dominic]

Last Stand of the Wreckers #5:
And, it is over. Enough of the characters survive that this is arguably not a "Last Stand" in the proper sense. But, given the physical (Springer), mental (Kup) and political (Impactor) states of some of the members, the "team" is pretty much dead. Roche delivered on both fannish expectations and just plain narrative expectations. His greatest talent seems to be the ability to understand the themes and settings he is working with, and using them to tell a story. (Ironically, he plays with some of the same ideas that McCarthy did in AHM, but fans are responding better to it. This might be an "Emperor's New Clothes" effect.) Roche even expands on ideas from Furman's run, (flawed reality v/s glorious image).

Of course, this raises a couple of questions about Roche. How much of his commerical success is based on fans who are just dazzled by his name? Much of the praise I have seen for this book is "wowie, the characters are awesome, and XYZ died!", while ignoring the writing that Roche delivered. Will Roche let this go to his head? Will he become lazy for it? (Furman certainly got lazy circa '02, coasting on a few good stories and a hell of a brand name.) The other question is follows from one that this series answers. Roche has got talent. His two short stories were not flukes. There is enough commonality in the tone and pacing of what he has produced so far that his results can be called consistent. The man can write. The man just might be the next John Byrne. There. I said it. But, what kind of of pace can he maintain? I would rather have a few really good comics from this guy than a string of Dixon-esque mediocrities. (Dixon can write a fine place-holder book. But, he alone should not be keeping anyone in comics.) Roche has earned credibility. I want to see him experiment. I want to see him test his limits. I will forgive a few stumbles. But, most of all, I want the man to be recognized beyond the somewhat insular fandom.

Grade: A


Dom
-will answer Anderson in the next post.

[Dominic]

Posting spoiler tags, just in case:

Spoiler

Overlord gets a good deal of comeuppance from two different sources, though it's not nearly enough punishment for what he's done.

I dunno. He pitched a tremendous fit, and is being sent to his room after gettiong the scolding of a life time....from a human. And, he is left to stew over it.

Not that I don't enjoy a dark story from time to time, but at the end of it all, what was the point of the story? That the Decepticons have some real violent nutjobs in their ranks?

The point was hype. The story is not about having a moral so much as it is about having an idea.

This works at the Morrison level, without being self-indulgent tripe. (Yes, I am comparing Roche to Morrison in the same thread as I am comparing him to Byrne.) The series was hyped. The characters were hyped in and out of context, and they *knew* it. (Yes, I know the conventional rule is to discuss stories in the present tense. But, it is a stupid rule and I find the style to be cumbersome.)

Overlord and the Wreckers are brands in context. Granted, the brand association may not be positive, but it is there. Roche plays with the idea that being a hyped celebrity kind of sucks if you are a rational person or Cybertronian. Look at how the Decepticons react when Overlord shows up in issue 1. They are possibly more afraid of him than the Autobots are.

Consider Overlord's motivation. He knows he is a hype character, and he demands recognition from the one guy who does not really acknowledge the greatness of Overlord. Overlord epitomizes the "fun to read and gossip about, but terrible to have in one's circle at all" idea.

Pyro is not a great hero in waiting. He is a crazy ass. He is an egomaniac along the same lines as Overlord. (Wanna bet Roche intended for both to have Primus Apotheosis?) They both believed their own hype.

On the other hand, all the violence and death has left kind of a bad taste in my mouth. I enjoyed the series for the most part, but I wonder if it didn't go on an issue too long, and carry the violence and death just too far.

As stated in issue 5, the violence and death was the point, such as there was a point. The taking of Garrus 9 was the sort of event that makes for, in the words of an old Chinese proverb, "interesting times". The reason adventures are exciting is that they are dangerous. We admire explorers, (even warriors), for doing things that most of simply would rather avoid. I like to hike. I like the woods. But, there is no way in hell I would attempt even the base of Everest. A good friend of mine actively puts himself in varying degrees of dangers specifically to push himself to the limit. He is seriously considering box-car hopping, partly for the adventure. I admire him, but have no intention of joining him.

Roche shows just how miserable it can be for a hero.

And, as you pointed out, Roche shows the contrast between Autobot public relations and what some of them are actually capable of. As illustrated in Roche's Prowl story in AHM, Prowl is as much a maverick as many of the guys incarcerated at Garrus-9. He is as ruthless as, though more intelligent than, Impactor. (Prowl would have been smart enough to quietly execute Squadron-X. Impactor was too public about it, which risked dragging another planet into the war.) Impactor and the Autobots had their brand. But, it was not wholly consistent with reality.

Dom
-who the hell cares if this has TFs in it?

[andersonh1]

As stated in issue 5, the violence and death was the point, such as there was a point.

See, that kind of turns the whole series on its head. I'm not interested in reading a story just to watch a bunch of characters get slaughtered for the sake of it. There has to be more to it than that.

Spoiler

Think about the whole point of the Wrecker's mission. They were sent into Garrus-9 to retrieve the incriminating information from the Autobots' justice computer to prevent the Decepticons from using it as propaganda. And that's it. Pyro, Rotorstorm, Topspin and Twin Twist died to keep certain Autobots, many of whom are dead according to Ultra Magnus, from being publically embarassed. It's a very bleak ending to an already grim story.

Things like this happen in real life, in wars. People die in pointless stupid ways, for no good reason, as the story itself says. But that doesn't make for a very satisfying resolution to the drama. I suppose the pointlessness of it all may well be the story's ultimate theme, but again, I don't find that satisfying as a reader.

[Dominic]

See, that kind of turns the whole series on its head. I'm not interested in reading a story just to watch a bunch of characters get slaughtered for the sake of it. There has to be more to it than that.

The thing is that there is "more to it than that".

The story is about perception and reality, as described above. And part of that is that adventures can actually be pretty dreadful. Think of funny stories from your life. The events they are based on were probably inconveniences of a sort when they occured. In this case, the Wreckers had one hell of an adventure. (The original meaning of "adventure" itself is much weightier than it is now.)

This was not a question of the writer killing off character to prove they story was important and/or "meant business". (Ref: A good chunk of recent DC.) Roche had a story to tell beyond "lewk at me can killz off teh karacturz".

And, yeah, the story has irony. Overlord was probably not smart enough to use the information on Aquitas. Granted, he could have denied it to the Autobots. But, even so, he could have set up a scenario to lure more Autobots in to his trap. Ultimately, Prowl wanted the information. (If he just wanted to deny the Decepticons, he likely could have launched a larger assauld on Garrus-9, and just wiped out the whole place.)

Roche wove a number of themes and ideas into a single story, while making sure it worked in context with the rest of the franchise. As far as I am concerned, he can kill off as many characters as he likes if he keeps writing at this level. Roche is writing more than breathless accounts of fictional events. That is more than worth killing off some minor characters.


Dom
-and they damned well need to stay dead.

[andersonh1]

I think you're boiling my objections down to "Roche killed off characters Anderson liked, and so he dislikes the story". It's not that simple.

We've just seen five issues of brutal violence, torture and death. If I as a reader and going to slog through all of that, I'd like to think that there was a good reason to do so. The sheer amount of carnage was not necessary to drive home the "shattered illusions/dreams vs. reality" theme, so there has to be some other reason to depict it in such detail. And truth be told, now that it's over, I'm not seeing the justification within the narrative. Not unless the message of the story was that "this is what happens if the Decepticons win and we really want to avoid that no matter what", and I don't think that's what Roche was going for. No characters make that observation.

In other words, the violence almost seems like it's there for shock value. The payoff for sticking with it was not adequate.

This was not a question of the writer killing off character to prove they story was important and/or "meant business". (Ref: A good chunk of recent DC.) Roche had a story to tell beyond "lewk at me can killz off teh karacturz".

I agree completely. Given the situation as set up, with hordes of violent Decepticons in control of the prison versus about 10 Autobots, it's a given that not all of them are going to get out alive. The story would not have been credible if all of them had. But in the fictional context, the dead Autobots both on the Wreckers team and in the prison died for no good reason.

I'm not objecting to Roche disposing of characters when that fits the story, as it so clearly does. Not that I like it of course. However leaving aside the real-world authorial choices, and looking at the mission in the fictional context, it's clear that the Wreckers who died did so in order to prevent the Decepticons from obtaining propoganda. And so we're weighing lives lost versus the personal discomfort of a few important Autobots. That doesn't seem worth it to me.

To give Prowl credit, he believed that the information would fracture the Autobots if it became public. He evidently felt that the potential loss of life was worth keeping that information out of Decepticon hands. Judging by Ironfist's reaction to learning the truth about what Impactor did, Prowl might be right. But it's impossible to make that judgment without knowing who did what, and so we're left with my original assertion that the Wreckers who died did so for reasons that weren't worth it.

And, yeah, the story has irony. Overlord was probably not smart enough to use the information on Aquitas. Granted, he could have denied it to the Autobots. But, even so, he could have set up a scenario to lure more Autobots in to his trap. Ultimately, Prowl wanted the information. (If he just wanted to deny the Decepticons, he likely could have launched a larger assauld on Garrus-9, and just wiped out the whole place.)

I'm assuming that Prowl hoped that a quick commando raid could allow the Wreckers to get in and get out with minimal loss of life. It's worth pointing out that the Wreckers did in fact accomplish the mission they were sent in to do. But I did wonder just why Prowl didn't send in overwhelming force when the situation clearly called for it. Perhaps the fact that they didn't learn about Overlord's involvement until late in the game was a factor in going with the smaller group.

[Dominic]

I never said you were getting overly attached to the characters.

The sheer amount of carnage was not necessary to drive home the "shattered illusions/dreams vs. reality" theme, so there has to be some other reason to depict it in such detail. And truth be told, now that it's over, I'm not seeing the justification within the narrative.

The carnage was more necessary by virtue of the context. There as a massive prison break orchestrated by a jumped up thug. That is not going to go well for anyone. Overlord is the guy "super duper badass" kind of guy who knows he is a super duper badass. Rather than being a parody of the super duper badass, (like say, Lobo), or presented as 100% pure awesome, (think Sabertooth in "Death Hunt", or any Steven Segal character), he is presented as truly horrible. (Wow, who would have thunk that knowing him would be so dreadful?) He is on the page for maybe 2 pages before he kills a fellow Decepticon.

The carnage fit the setting. It was an "unreal" amount of carnage. What did Overlord do to the prisoners? He killed them. It was only a shock for us as readers because we are, on some level, conditioned to expect the bad guys to not really be *that* bad. They will (mostly) let (named) hostages live, likely setting up for a dramatic break/rescue scene. But, Overlord did exactly what a maniac like him would be expected to do, he killed the prisoners before any type of escape could be made. If he did not play with his food so much, he might well have gotten around to it sooner, and killed Impactor before the later could have escaped.

Not unless the message of the story was that "this is what happens if the Decepticons win and we really want to avoid that no matter what", and I don't think that's what Roche was going for.

The message was not, "this is what happens when the Decepticons win". That was covered in AHM. The result there was ennui, and likely civil war, for the Decepticons. It would be closer, but not wholly accurate, to say that "this is what happens when a lunatic like Overlord is in charge". He would probably have eventually killed all of the Decepticons on Garrus-9. (Betcha *that* would have gotten Megatron's attention. And, if Megatron had not been shot in the head during AHM, it would have given him a nice "other" to rally the troops against.)


The story was, on many levels, about truth and illusions. Overlord really was, in a sense, a super duper badass. He showed exactly what he was capable of. Even killing machines like Sixshot had some measure of, for lack of a better term, humanity. Sixshot had some measure of kinship and affection for the Terrorcons. (Granted, it was a really sick measure of kinship. But, it was there.) Sixshot's troops might have been wary of him. But, they were not *terrified* of him. (Again, note the fear in the first issue when Overlord shows up. The Decepticons are arguably more frightened of the big guy than the Autobots are.)

The new Wreckers learn what it is really like to be on the team. The Jumpstarters are the "regular guys", much to Ironfist's shock. Even Springer, who should be mature enough to know better, goes to pieces when he sees Kup alive during the AHM Coda.

But in the fictional context, the dead Autobots both on the Wreckers team and in the prison died for no good reason.

Ah, but was there no (proportionate) reason?

I am willing to bet that Roche would say the Wreckers at least died for a good reason. The prison staff simply had the misfortune of working on the day that everything went to hell. If anything, they died because Sunstreaker, (and likely a few others), were less than true to the Autobot cause.

The Wreckers died to protect the morale of the Autobots.

All of Roche's work has been about the power of illusions about others and strength of personality, (a nicely resonant theme when one is writing about transforming robots). Kup *is* viscerally important enough for Springer to waste lives on a fool-hardy rescue attempt. (Had Springer reacted more rationally to begin with, he may have brought in Trailbreaker sooner, costing fewer lives.) Prowl's whole plan with Kup in AHM was based on the premise that the Autobots like their heroes to be outlandish. "Spotlight: Blaster" was also based on this premise. (Roche really worked previously established ideas into this story.)

Guzzle's doubts, post-Kup-rescue, weighed heavily on him. It is said repeatedly that Kup himself cannot know how much was done on his behalf, because that knowledge would crush him.

Look at Ironfist's reaction when he "reads" the Aquitas file. The idea of Impactor executing prisoners was terrible enough that he was okay with killing his former (and at that point, fallen) hero.


Now, considering all of that, how much damage could be done with a public airing of the Aquitas documents? Flame, as shown in the flash-back, behaved abominably. Even the Decepticon's tiered invasions are for the practical end of gaining resources. Flame seemed to have engaged in discretional brutality. When a student of history like Ironfist has a childish view of a historic subject, (such as the Wreckers), what would the reaction of the others likely be should the truth be less than appealling?

Prowl wanted the Auitas files for himself. And, who could blame him? They are radioactive gold. Prowl needed to manage them. He may eventually have wanted to reveal them in bits and pieces to the other Autobots. He may have wanted them for the purposes of further covering up the events they recorded. In any case, the damaged that could be done with the Aquitas files more than justifies the loss of the Wreckers.


The same principle arguably applies on the Decepticon side.
Overlord wants to build his rep in the eyes of the one guy who matters. He has quite the rep amongst the troops. (They are rightly terrified of him.) But, Megatron is *unaware* of the glory of Overlord. Overlord *wanted* the carnage promised by "option 2" because it would have validated his existence. Megatron may well have decided that killing Overlord was not worth the effort. (Or, he may not have gotten around it it. Who knows?)


Roche just happened to write this in a "Transformers" context. And, TF lends itself to this sort of story. But, he could have written it using most any set of characters. He could have made up his own characters and settings if need be.


Dom
-damn, it is good to be able to discuss a TF book intelligently.

[Dominic]

And, James Roberts deserves some credit as well.

Dom
-feels bad for neglecting that earlier.

[BWprowl]

I agree with most of what Dom said about illusions/reality and so forth, but I wanted to add my two cents.

See, the thing that I really liked about this story was that it also tackled a subject in Transformers fiction that's been weighing on me for some time now: the idea of the Autobots being the 'good guys' and the Decepticons being the 'bad guys'. In this series, Prowl's ultimate aim was to preserve the 'good guy' image the Autobots have of themselves. But with the reader privy to all sides of the situation, we can make our own judgment call. It only makes sense that with the entirety of a population divided into only two factions, that some truly horrible individuals would wind up on *both* sides. Besides the archetypical Evil Autobot Flame who got to show up in a flashback this issue, you also have to remember that Jihaxus, Cyclonus, and Galvatron were all Autobots in this continuity. And with Prowl's concern over the Aequitas records, it seems there were even more than that. I mean, with a cast as huge as in 'Transformers' it only makes sense that odds would place some 'bad guys' on the Autobot side, but a lot of us have never really thought about it (especially since, prior to IDW, Flame was the *only* Evil Autobot to appear in the fiction).

So with Pandora's Box opened and the point made that there are 'bad guys' among the side labeled 'good guys', we have to ask ourselves why one is the other anyway. In the context of this story, are the Autobots 'good' simply because they cover up their atrocites, as opposed to the 'bad' Decepticons who glorify such achievements? In this case, it would seem that the 'Morale' that holds the Autobots together and is the sole thing separating them from the Decepticons is an illusion itself, not unlike the perception of the Wreckers' 'adventures' that Ironfist had delusions about. I mean, if the Autobots had to build an entire supercomputer to calculate the guilt of their own, and guard it so carefully, how many 'bad guys' were there among them?

I also find it exceedingly ironic that PROWL, of all Autobots, said he felt taken aback by the Autobot atrocities from the Aequitas trials. It's a serious case of the pot being disgusted by how black the kettle is.

In regards to the violence (and this ties into the ideas of how a faction/society perceives itself), I think all the gruesomeness and torture and death was Roche's way of writing a 'realistic' Transformers War Story, as opposed to the sterilized, 'history book' versions that he would seem to accuse previous TF stories of being.

So, what Prowl did for Ironfist was kind of a really sick version of the Make-A-Wish Foundation's M.O.?

[Dominic]

"Dear Make a Wish,

I work in an experimental munitions factory and suffered an on the job accident......"

Besides the archetypical Evil Autobot Flame who got to show up in a flashback this issue, you also have to remember that Jihaxus, Cyclonus, and Galvatron were all Autobots in this continuity.

Actually, Jihaxus and co pre-dated factions.

Flame is arguably worse than any of them. Jihaxus and co wanted to build. Flame's crimes seemed to be more discretionary.

In this case, it would seem that the 'Morale' that holds the Autobots together and is the sole thing separating them from the Decepticons is an illusion itself, not unlike the perception of the Wreckers' 'adventures' that Ironfist had delusions about. I mean, if the Autobots had to build an entire supercomputer to calculate the guilt of their own, and guard it so carefully, how many 'bad guys' were there among them?

I think Aequitas was used for everybody incarcerated at Garrus-9. (Granted, that included a good many Autobots, but it was not wholly Autobots.)

If we go with the idea that TF is soft sci-fi, (and assume that TFs think more or less like people), it is not unreasonable to assume that they want to be the good guys. Few Decepticons wake up and think "heeee heee heee, I am bad". In IDW, most of the Decepticons initially were joining a disgruntled labor movement. (Regardless of how "Megatron: Origins" came out, that was the basic premise. Thundercracker shows doubts during AHM and "Origins" when he is confronted with Decepticon excesses.) Germany has collective amnesia about the 30s and 40. I know Americans who have trouble admitting to our collective follies.

Somehow, Mirage's doubts do not seem completely out of order.

I also find it exceedingly ironic that PROWL, of all Autobots, said he felt taken aback by the Autobot atrocities from the Aequitas trials. It's a serious case of the pot being disgusted by how black the kettle is.

I disagree.

Prowl was not that bad. Who did he hurt? Granted, he manipulated Springer. And, yeah, he made creative use of a comatose patient. But, he was doing so for the good of others. Prowl was not having a party while he stuffed Kup's head full of logic.

Contrast that with Flame's apparent crimes.

Motive matters.

Prowl knew the damage that the Aequitas files could have done to the Autobots. Imagine how guys like Mirage would react. How many would start to agree with Mirage? Ironhide would go into full "morale officer" mode. Immature twits like Bumblebee would do the stupidest possible thing.

The Aequitas documents were radioactive gold.

Dom
-some secrets are best kept secret.