high points in the franchise

[Dominic]

Hey, Sparky started it.

Joking aside, here are the questions he asked:

I am going to cheat and choose multiple options for some of these.

-High point of the TF franchise?
I would say themid 80s, when TF first came out. Generation 2 was a good mix of old and new. The UT felt like a clean relaunch, which the franchise had not really had in any meaningful way. (BW was a relaunch after the fact.) I personally *really* enjoyed '04 to '06, when it was best to be a collector in the US, rather than the UK or Japan. That is not always the case. But, it is always fun when it is the case.

While I do not harbor shame about my hobby, I did kind of like seeing it break back in to the mainstream in 2007.

-Best writing?
Over-all, IDW has really impressed me. They have kept me in comics at least once, arguably 2 or 3 times.
Early and late Marvel G1 has some really good stuff in it.

-Best stories?
In terms of stuff what happens, Marvel UK/US scores serious points here. The status quo changed remarkably over time. I will even give the cartoon its due.

-Best animation for its time?
The Bay movies. The CG is incredible.

-Best characters and development?
The G1 Marvel comics. This ties in heavily with the fact that the status quo changed over time. The characters generally had to change with it.


Dom
-there was better than BW animation wase in the 90s.

[Sparky Prime]

Hey, Sparky started it.

You begged the question since you said the fandom "defaults" to BW as a high point rather than having their quantifiable reasons justifying it to be ranked as such.

I am going to cheat and choose multiple options for some of these.

CHEATING!!! I meant my question in line towards what TF media did you think exemplifies all of those traits together, not each one individually. That defeats the purpose of what singular TF media exemplifies the high point of the franchise as a whole.

-there was better than BW animation wase in the 90s.

Such as? BW was cutting edge for its time, being among the first fully CGI television shows. It even won an Emmy for Outstanding Achievement in Animation.

[Dominic]

Pixar was doing better stuff than Mainfram in the mid 90s. Yeah, Disney was more able/willing to pay them Pixar than Hasbro was to pay Mainframe. And, it is not unreasonable to assume that Pixar had better tech and more human capital. But, the fact remains that Pixar topped Mainframe.

I also recall "War Planets" looking better as well. But, either way....Pixar.

all of those traits together

I am trying to answer this viscerally......

And,....

Right now.

Yes, there are distribution problems. Toys get cancelled or are otherwise rare. Comics, especially compilations, are stressful to find. The cartoon is, from what I have heard, a mixed bag. And, we have to sift through piles of tertiary crap like Bot-Shots and roleplay toys, to say nothing of pages of reports about them.

But, dammit, all of that stuff is available. Just in the last 10 years, there were points when one or more of the base 3 (comics, cartoons or toys) were not readily available....and that is when the franchise was considered more vital than it had been for years. (And, we all remember the 90s, right?)

I remember a time when there was, maybe, 1 TF comics on the shelves. But, even before this year, we could expect 1 "core" book (if not an ongoing), some one-shots and/or a limited series to compliment the core book, movie tie-in comics and usually something more.... Yes, I might worry that the TF comic market could implode. But, when was that possibility anything more than laughable? And, the comics are *good*. Even the worst of IDW's output, (whatever you want to say that is), is more technically proficient than chunks of Marvel US/UK that you could easily name.

Remember, just before DW, when it looked like the only TF comics we were likely to get would be from BotCon? Remember when it looked like "Universe", itself derived from the fan-ficish "Avengers Forever", was going to be "the TF comic"?

Look at my skip rate last year. I skipped *all* DotM toys. In other words, I skipped the entirety of the core line. Even before the new toys hit, I was skipping stuff. I would place my skip rate at 75%....and I still had plenty to keep my busy in terms of action figures. (And, that is not counting customizing and such....)

I may not be bothering with the cartoon. But, my god, there is a TF cartoon on the air for the first time since 2006.

So, yeah, right now is a pretty high mark for the hobby as a whole.


Dom
-anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Shockwave]

Pixar wasn't on fox kids in the mid 90's so that doesn't count. Seriously, that's like comparing the original Land of the Lost to Star Wars. I challenge you to find a tv show on at the time that was better than BW in animation. Cause I sure don't remember seeing any.

For me? High point of the franchise? 1984-85. That was when it was huge and in the public eye and I think that was at it's zenith for overall recognizability. As for the best writing, stories, tv show, comics... I think now. I mean, think about it, the G1 comics get regularly reprinted for those that missed out, the G1 cartoon is on tv again for those that missed out, there's a new cartoon going right now, video games get made every year and the current comics have had the best writing I've seen in TF comics... well ever. And then there's toys. We get toys from the movies, toys of some of our favorite and even obscure G1 characters... all in all I would say the high point of the franchise is right now.

As for BW, I would say that was TURNING POINT for the franchise.

[Sparky Prime]

Shockwave is right, that's really not a fair basis of comparison with Pixar working on feature films to Mainframe being television. Plus Pixar really pioneered the CGI field, having invented a lot of the technology themselves. Pixar is really in a league of their own compared to any other animation studio.

As for "War Planets", that came out in 1998 to Beast Wars being 1996. Technology had already improved by then and couldn't be implemented after the fact. As I recall from an interview years ago, the animators were really excited for Beast Machines because it gave them the opportunity to make some of those improvements they'd wanted to do for Beast Wars, particularly with water and fire effects.

I am trying to answer this viscerally......

You're avoiding answering the question at all. First you cheated by taking each point individually, now you're cheating by talking about how many toys and comics are on shelves which has nothing to do with the original question.

The point of the question was what singular part of the franchise, particularly as it pertains to the content of the media, stands out as the high point.

But, my god, there is a TF cartoon on the air for the first time since 2006.

And Transformers: Animated (which ran from 2007-2009) doesn't count because...?

[Mako Crab]

For me, the high point of Transformers came with Beast Wars. As a 7-year-old kid in 1986 I never once cried when Optimus Prime died, but I'll be damned if I didn't choke up when Dinobot, Blackarachnia, Tarantulus and others died. The writing and characters were engaging and the animation was superb. I really loved that show.

[Dominic]

You're avoiding answering the question at all. First you cheated by taking each point individually, now you're cheating by talking about how many toys and comics are on shelves which has nothing to do with the original question.

The point of the question was what singular part of the franchise, particularly as it pertains to the content of the media, stands out as the high point.

Uh, I talk about the comics, which would relate to media/content.

Dom
-just plum forgot about TFA.

[Sparky Prime]

Uh, I talk about the comics, which would relate to media/content.

But again, you don't single out any comic series as a single-most high point for the franchise. You talk about some qualities, but as you'd admitted, was cheating at the question. Why wont you just answer the question with out cheating at it or deflecting away from it?

[Onslaught Six]

Believe it or not? RID. If not the highest point, then definitely one of them. This was a point where even stores that usually didn't carry toys were voluntarily carrying the TF line--places like Gamestop and FYE. (In fact, my RID Bruticus was bought from a Gamestop. Possibly one of my most vivid toy buying memories.) The cartoon was good (stuff it, anyone who hated the RID cartoon, it was better than all three series to follow it) and the toys were some of the best in years.

I dunno why but it seemed like the gap between BM and RID felt like 'years,' or maybe it just did to my young mind, because it felt like for the first time in ages Transformers Were Back, and actually made a difference again.

Next up is Armada, because regardless of actual quality, Armada was *pushed* as the Big Transformers Reboot. You forget, Armada was aired alongside the 2002 He-Man cartoon. It was on 'Toonami,' which claimed to have the best action cartoons on the planet (and with the exception of Armada, usually did). And the toyline was apparently so successful that it had retailers 'clamouring' for more TF product to the point that Hasbro first released some of the later-run RID toys (Dreadwing & Smokescreen, the Destructicons, the Dinobots sub-line) before rebranding the whole thing as Universe and giving us our first bonafied TF Sub-line, something which has almost continually went on in some form since its inception.

So for me, it's those two periods. I'm a firm believer that, while BW surely revived the franchise for its time, BM's poor reception probably killed the line way faster than anything else. Remember, BM was going to be followed up by Transtech, which was a direct sequel, and between shutting down the old Kenner offices and BM's poor reception, Hasbro seriously went, "Oh my God, what the fuck, we need to pull out and retool the entire line as a concept, what can we do for the next year and a half? Oh, hey, Takara just made an entire anime and toyline that's entirely different from BM and will provide a great filler line. Use that."

In my opinion, RID was instrumental in bringing TF back to its roots in the US and bringing people back on board after BM. People might talk about it with disdain now, or lump it in with the ArmEnerTron series for some unfathomable reason, but when it was airing people LOVED RID. People were excited that Transformers were turning into honest-to-God cars, trucks and planes again. Between that and the early 2000s nostalgia push, I'm positive that, even if BW hadn't aired, TF would have climbed back up to the level it was now, possibly at the same rate.

Because, remember, Hasbro wanted to do a GI Joe movie first, because GI Joe as a property has been floundering since the 90s with misdirection and simply 'not knowing what it wants to be,' switching gears between nostalgia-fueled line, modern day military and bozo sci-fi futuretech (both cool and ugly looking) on a whim. TF was a stronger property with more established bits to draw on, and that's why it became a movie first. GI Joe got a relaunch in 2002 as well, right alongside TF (Armada) and He-Man. It's my opinion that even if TF hadn't had Beast Wars, it would have gotten a movie--if not in 2007, maybe in 2009. And maybe then it'd actually have a competant director.

[Dominic]

But again, you don't single out any comic series as a single-most high point for the franchise. You talk about some qualities, but as you'd admitted, was cheating at the question. Why wont you just answer the question with out cheating at it or deflecting away from it?

Twice in this thread, I wrote that the modern comics were comething that I considered a highpoint of the line. Odds are, that I would argue that the modern comics hit most, if not all of the points you outline. And, if not, then you would just say "well what about". No need to go down that road.

Next up is Armada, because regardless of actual quality, Armada was *pushed* as the Big Transformers Reboot. You forget, Armada was aired alongside the 2002 He-Man cartoon. It was on 'Toonami,' which claimed to have the best action cartoons on the planet (and with the exception of Armada, usually did). And the toyline was apparently so successful that it had retailers 'clamouring' for more TF product to the point that Hasbro first released some of the later-run RID toys (Dreadwing & Smokescreen, the Destructicons, the Dinobots sub-line) before rebranding the whole thing as Universe and giving us our first bonafied TF Sub-line, something which has almost continually went on in some form since its inception.

That was a weirdly fun time to be a collector. The main line was using new engineering and designs. And, there was a weird little kick to hearing about new "out of the blue" recolours.


Dom
-still cannot get behind the RiD cartoon.