The modern comics universe has had such a different take on G1, one that's significantly represented by the Generations toys, so they share a forum. A modern take on a Real Cybertronian Hero. Currently starring Generations toys, IDW "The Transformers" comics, MTMTE, TF vs GI Joe, and Windblade. Oh wait, and now Skybound, wheee!
andersonh1 wrote:That's half of it. Yeah, in terms of the story itself, the sacrifice of the Wreckers wasn't worth it. But it's more a case of a story for the most part that needed to justify the plentiful use of death and torture with a strong narrative payoff, and I don't feel that it did so. I mean, we get to see all the gaping holes in torsos and dismembered bots in gory detail, but Roche and Roberts can't spare a few pages to detail these terrible secrets that would have split the Autobots in two? That justified Prowl sending Autobots to their deaths to preserve the lie? Sure we got one of them when we learned about what Impactor did, but that wasn't nearly enough. Not for me.
I think the reason the 'secrets' aren't detailed is to give the readers an out. If we were given a definitive rundown of all the Autobot Atrocities in the Aequitas file, it'd be very easy for us to go 'Wow, the Autobots are sheltering so many monsters that they really aren't much better than the Decepticons', and our 'good guy' image of them would be truly shattered. The way Roche did it, by keeping the 'atrocities' vague, allows the whole 'perceptions vs. reality' idea to work on a meta-level, as the audience gets an idea that the Autobots might not be that good, but thanks to the detail interference by Roche, that perception just barely stays in place, much the same as how Prowl ran information interference to keep the Autobots' perception of themselves as the 'good guys'. As it is, the biggest negative character detail revealed was 'Prowl is an insensitive prick who will gladly sacrifice good, likable 'Bots for the good of the big picture', and it's not like we didn't know that already.
I wonder how Nick Roche feels about Prowl's 'character development' over in the Ongoing.
andersonh1 wrote:That's half of it. Yeah, in terms of the story itself, the sacrifice of the Wreckers wasn't worth it. But it's more a case of a story for the most part that needed to justify the plentiful use of death and torture with a strong narrative payoff, and I don't feel that it did so. I mean, we get to see all the gaping holes in torsos and dismembered bots in gory detail, but Roche and Roberts can't spare a few pages to detail these terrible secrets that would have split the Autobots in two? That justified Prowl sending Autobots to their deaths to preserve the lie? Sure we got one of them when we learned about what Impactor did, but that wasn't nearly enough. Not for me.
I think the reason the 'secrets' aren't detailed is to give the readers an out. If we were given a definitive rundown of all the Autobot Atrocities in the Aequitas file, it'd be very easy for us to go 'Wow, the Autobots are sheltering so many monsters that they really aren't much better than the Decepticons', and our 'good guy' image of them would be truly shattered. The way Roche did it, by keeping the 'atrocities' vague, allows the whole 'perceptions vs. reality' idea to work on a meta-level, as the audience gets an idea that the Autobots might not be that good, but thanks to the detail interference by Roche, that perception just barely stays in place, much the same as how Prowl ran information interference to keep the Autobots' perception of themselves as the 'good guys'. As it is, the biggest negative character detail revealed was 'Prowl is an insensitive prick who will gladly sacrifice good, likable 'Bots for the good of the big picture', and it's not like we didn't know that already.
I wonder how Nick Roche feels about Prowl's 'character development' over in the Ongoing.
This. Whatever those Autobots did--it could never live up to what our imaginations *think* it is.
(Also, it means that this plot thread can be further explored by Roche or other writers down the line.)
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
And it may be that the events of Last Stand will be justified in future stories.
donosaur wrote:Hi! I haven't read any of this (just the forum rundown and TFWiki entries). Anderson, is your issue basically that the "secrets" are a weak MacGuffin?
"Weak" in the sense that they don't seen weighty enough to me. Let's face it: this is a story filled with serious action and consequences. Think about all the death and violence and torture in human terms, and the imagery would certainly be horrific. Roche doesn't seem to have included all of that for mere shock value. Rather it's the logical extension of the scenario he sets up when a homicidal maniac like Overlord takes over a prison already filled with criminals. And that's fine, I can accept that. It makes sense in context.
Given that very dramatic setup and situation, I expected a similarly hard-hitting conclusion to the story. I didn't get it. I got hints about momentous secrets and a trite sentiment about life enduring. The Wreckers' entire mission boils down to a small data chip that Prowl crushes in the last few pages. The supposed weight of the secrets on that disk was simply not conveyed in a manner that convinced me that the mission to retrieve them was worth it.
I understand what Onslaught Six and BW Prowl are saying about leaving it to the imagination of the reader, and that's certainly a valid point of view to take. But to me that approach feels hollow. If characters are going to die in horrible ways, I don't need the justification left to my imagination, I need it spelled out on the page so I can make an informed judgment.
I still don't know if I'm explaining myself well. Understand that I'm not saying LSOTW was a bad series or badly written. Quite the opposite, and for the most part I've enjoyed it quite a bit. I hope for more in future from Roche and Roberts. Maybe they'll follow up and let us know just what got Prowl so concerned that he felt sending the Wreckers on a suicide mission was justified. I'd like to know.
andersonh1 wrote:Given that very dramatic setup and situation, I expected a similarly hard-hitting conclusion to the story. I didn't get it. I got hints about momentous secrets and a trite sentiment about life enduring. The Wreckers' entire mission boils down to a small data chip that Prowl crushes in the last few pages. The supposed weight of the secrets on that disk was simply not conveyed in a manner that convinced me that the mission to retrieve them was worth it.
In a way, isn't that expanding upon the theme itself? Sometimes the biggest operations are the most secret. This kind of thing happens in real life all the time. Prowl, the higher-up military commander, only cares about bullshit political stuff while the working-class Wreckers do all the dirty work, and a lot of them die. Maybe the whole mission *wasn't* really worth it. And that's, I think, Roche's point.
From a traditional storytelling point of view, maybe that leaves you unfulfilled, but one can't deny the validity of the idea.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
The supposed weight of the secrets on that disk was simply not conveyed in a manner that convinced me that the mission to retrieve them was worth it.
Roche is pretty clear about the nature of the offenses though.
We see at least some of the charges Flame was tried for. (These included things that were likely recreational in nature, meaning he could not even claim practical justification as Impactor did.) The political cost of such secrets becoming public would be staggering. Even putting aside the folly of the Autobots in the main book, Roche provides evidence for the political cost in this series.
Ironfist handles what he learns from Aequitas in the manner of a child. Imagine any number of Autobots pitching a similar, (if not more vocal), tantrum. They would fragment more than the post-AHM Decepticons seem to be.
I didn't get it. I got hints about momentous secrets and a trite sentiment about life enduring.
I am pretty sure the sentiment about life enduring was intended to be more about the status quo, (secrets kept secret), than about individual characters.
O6 has a point about the secrets not being revealed in tedious detail working with the theme.
Dom
-is pretty sure Pyro/Spark from the BotCon set is not even going to be close to as useful as Pyro from "Last Stand of the Wreckers".
andersonh1 wrote:Given that very dramatic setup and situation, I expected a similarly hard-hitting conclusion to the story. I didn't get it. I got hints about momentous secrets and a trite sentiment about life enduring. The Wreckers' entire mission boils down to a small data chip that Prowl crushes in the last few pages. The supposed weight of the secrets on that disk was simply not conveyed in a manner that convinced me that the mission to retrieve them was worth it.
For the record, they didn't actually show whether or not Prowl destroyed the data chip at the end. That, like the information on the chip, was left ambiguous.
andersonh1 wrote:Given that very dramatic setup and situation, I expected a similarly hard-hitting conclusion to the story. I didn't get it. I got hints about momentous secrets and a trite sentiment about life enduring. The Wreckers' entire mission boils down to a small data chip that Prowl crushes in the last few pages. The supposed weight of the secrets on that disk was simply not conveyed in a manner that convinced me that the mission to retrieve them was worth it.
For the record, they didn't actually show whether or not Prowl destroyed the data chip at the end. That, like the information on the chip, was left ambiguous.
True... it looks like he's squeezing it, and he talks about applying pressure, but it isn't confirmed one way or the other.
I doubt he destroyed it. If he wanted the documents destroyed, he would not have sent the Wreckers in to retrieve the chip. He would simply have used the exotic weapons researched and built at the Kimea facility to wipe Garrus-9 off the map.
The information could be valuable for any number of parties, for most any purpose.
I'm still struck by a couple of contrasting scenes in the third issue, and I can't help but wonder if the placement and manner of dispatch was deliberate. I'm talking about Rotorstorm getting his head blown off by Overlord, followed by scenes (or maybe preceded, I don't have the book in front of me right now) of the other Wreckers taking headshots at the Decepticons following them and cheering.
In both instances, we've got one side killing someone on the other side by shooting them in the head. The Wreckers are just as brutal as Overlord when it comes to dispatching an opponent. Now we could argue with quite a bit of validity that the Wreckers are under threat and are thus protecting their lives, while Overlord is not threatened by the Wreckers and is simply murdering because it amuses him. Therefore the moral value of each group's actions is different. But should we as readers be cheering for the Wreckers in this instance, and should we not be bothered by the fact that they enjoy taking out their opponents just as much as Overlord does?
Perhaps this plays into the theme about the Autobots having done some things that are just as bad as the 'Cons. Any thoughts?
Perhaps this plays into the theme about the Autobots having done some things that are just as bad as the 'Cons. Any thoughts?
I think this is exactly the thing Roche was going for. A few of the Wreckers, such as Impactor, are professionals about what they do. But, there are some who are in it for the fun. Along similar lines, there are Decepticons who are professional about what they do. Sixshot is a professional. That Decepticon who Overlord kills in issue one is also a professional.
Who would you rather work for or with, Pyro (a documented nut-case) or Skyquake (the guy Overlord killed in issue one)? (Hint: Skyquake.)
It is a safe bet that Overlord has the same kind of "disorder" that Pyro has.
