TF Views

Gomess wrote:I'm still trying to find a free version of WinRAR so I can read this file O6 sent me.

Oh! I have one!

I'll find out what it is and report back.

BWprowl wrote:Yeah, and it weren't for the fact that they both had 'IDW' up in the corners of their covers, you probably wouldn't even have been able to tell that Furman's run and AHM were supposed to be in the same continuity.

There were some references to what had been established in Furman's run in AHM that tied them together continuity wise. Although much of those didn't come up until half way through the series.

Seriously, how people have such a big problem with AHM based mainly on the fact that IDW told them "Hey, this and the -ion series are supposed to be part of the same story". Sparky, let me ask what I should've asked way earlier: If AHM had explicitly been in an isolated, Elseworlds-esque continuity, would you have had as big a problem with it?

I think that would have made it a bit better, but as I said before, AHM has some problems within itself.

All of that was in the last decade. You're only focusing on the bad and not acknowledging the good and that's really not fair.

Furman has not been consistently bad. (I have said before that he averages "middling to bad, with some very good mixed in".) But, for the last decade of so, Furman has taken to talking up all of his work beyond what any reasonable person would believe. And, his bad has been *very* bad. I tend to think that he gets lax, (happy), because he knows/thinks he can get away with it.

The "-ation" books were not wholly bad. But, Furman could not manage to make ALIEN ROBOTS SNEAKING AROUND exciting enough. He did not even finish establishing a status quo, (the 6 stage protocol), before everything went wacky. The six stage protocal could have carried that book for a couple of years at least.

particularly Spotlight Mirage which also attracts a fair amount of flak from the wiki)

I think the problem with the Mirage special was that fans felt a need to complicate it needlessly. They immediately reached for the "alternate universe" card, rather than just assume that Mirage was having a distressing dream and was possibly a lunatic.

My opinion is: "Who gives a shit about consistency? I just want a decent story." I mean, there are *tons* of TF stories out there that don't match up with anything in particular that don't get nearly the flak AHM gets for not lining up perfectly with a couple years worth of mediocre comics that had mainly been written by *one guy*.

I can sympathize with the complaints about inconsistency. But, I can forgive the inconsistency in this case because IDW was likely trying to distance themselves from Furman. His star had faded by '07 or so.

For the record, I would have preferred AHM to be either a clean reboot or an "Elseworld". Most of the ties to the "-ation" books could have been severed with minimal difficulty. A few back-written flashbacks would fill in any necessary blanks.

Yeah, well, the -ion series isn't consistent with Furman's Marvel G1 comics, and yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that.

It is less a question of consistency and more a problem of some fans never getting past 1991.

That's an amazingly long amount of time to give a show or a book a chance. Costa presented some interesting *IDEAS*, but he displayed little ability in developing those ideas beyond their inception and taking them somewhere. Good ideas do not a good story make.

The thing is that Costa does develop those ideas. We see the difference between Spike the warrior (his basic grasp of tactics makes him truly virtuous), Spike the solider (passable, but in need of supervision as he is given to personal antics), and Spike the leader (an abysmal failure as he is incapable of acting consistently with his station).


Dom
-so, 9 pages about a book that is not even guaranteed to be coming out.

Dominic wrote:

All of that was in the last decade. You're only focusing on the bad and not acknowledging the good and that's really not fair.

Furman has not been consistently bad. (I have said before that he averages "middling to bad, with some very good mixed in".) But, for the last decade of so, Furman has taken to talking up all of his work beyond what any reasonable person would believe. And, his bad has been *very* bad. I tend to think that he gets lax, (happy), because he knows/thinks he can get away with it.

The "-ation" books were not wholly bad. But, Furman could not manage to make ALIEN ROBOTS SNEAKING AROUND exciting enough. He did not even finish establishing a status quo, (the 6 stage protocol), before everything went wacky. The six stage protocal could have carried that book for a couple of years at least.

particularly Spotlight Mirage which also attracts a fair amount of flak from the wiki)

I think the problem with the Mirage special was that fans felt a need to complicate it needlessly. They immediately reached for the "alternate universe" card, rather than just assume that Mirage was having a distressing dream and was possibly a lunatic.

My opinion is: "Who gives a shit about consistency? I just want a decent story." I mean, there are *tons* of TF stories out there that don't match up with anything in particular that don't get nearly the flak AHM gets for not lining up perfectly with a couple years worth of mediocre comics that had mainly been written by *one guy*.

I can sympathize with the complaints about inconsistency. But, I can forgive the inconsistency in this case because IDW was likely trying to distance themselves from Furman. His star had faded by '07 or so.

For the record, I would have preferred AHM to be either a clean reboot or an "Elseworld". Most of the ties to the "-ation" books could have been severed with minimal difficulty. A few back-written flashbacks would fill in any necessary blanks.

Yeah, well, the -ion series isn't consistent with Furman's Marvel G1 comics, and yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that.

It is less a question of consistency and more a problem of some fans never getting past 1991.

That's an amazingly long amount of time to give a show or a book a chance. Costa presented some interesting *IDEAS*, but he displayed little ability in developing those ideas beyond their inception and taking them somewhere. Good ideas do not a good story make.

The thing is that Costa does develop those ideas. We see the difference between Spike the warrior (his basic grasp of tactics makes him truly virtuous), Spike the solider (passable, but in need of supervision as he is given to personal antics), and Spike the leader (an abysmal failure as he is incapable of acting consistently with his station).


Dom
-so, 9 pages about a book that is not even guaranteed to be coming out.

Ok, fine, we get it. You have a scathing hatred of all things Furman. Personally, I can't help thinking that most of that is left over from when it was considered cool to hate Furman. It really almost sounds like you hate Furman just for the sake of hating Furman. Or maybe you also think it's funny? Kind of like "Haha yeah because Furman is a lazy hack haha!" You know what? It's not funny. Furman is an average writer who, like most writers, have good stories and bad stories. Unfortunately, his bad stories will horribly stain him forever regardless of how good later writings prove to be.

And there you go with that "stages" thing again. Dom, if I'm to be guilty of being the only Furman fan remaining, then you have to be the only fan who actually wanted to see all six stages played out. And I still don't think that was Furman's fault, I think it was part of IDW's larger plan. The -ation books leading to All Hail Megatron wouldn't have worked if Furman had instead shown the full 6 stages (I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to see that played out over multiple years!). Besides, he established well enough in dialogue what the status quo was so there was no reason to show it. But of course, as usual, it's Furman so it automatically sucks. All because of some obscure Botcon comics from back in the early 00's.

As for consistency, if IDW was really trying to distance themselves from Furman WHY IS HE STILL THERE!? If you're trying to distance yourself from someone the first thing you do is FIRE THEM! And maybe some fans never did get past 1991, but it's no better than not getting past the early 00's either. A story should be judged on it's own merits, not the writer or the editor or the company that produces it. None of that has any bearing on the story in and of itself. Furman's Botcon comics don't have any bearing on the -ation books. But because the Botcon comics sucked suddenly everything after is automatically shit and Furman is now forever branded a "Lazy hack".

General reply:

This is not a question of me reflexively hating Furman. But, he has phoned in enough projects in the last decade or so that I simply cannoty consider him to be a good writer.

-various BotCon comics.
-IDW Beast Wars.
-late DW efforts. (Of course, he might not have been getting paid at this point.)
-Stormbringer was.....a bunch of nothing.
-various UK movie comics ranged from empty to actively bad.


I also give Furman due for what he has done well. (I keep an "War Within" compilation on my bed stand, simply because it is joy to read.)

And there you go with that "stages" thing again. Dom, if I'm to be guilty of being the only Furman fan remaining, then you have to be the only fan who actually wanted to see all six stages played out. And I still don't think that was Furman's fault, I think it was part of IDW's larger plan.

The general consensus at the time, (based on often conflicting statements from IDW), was the "All Hail Megatron" was an intentional change in direction from Furman's run. The questions about how much AHM was originally intended to follow from that run are largely due to IDW initially being evasive and contrary on the subject.

I will amend my earlier statement about IDW wanting to distance themselves from Furman. It was more a question of them trying to distance themselves from his (then recent) work. The "-ation" boolks, despite what people now say, were getting mixed reviews and steadily declining sales. And, this was on the heels of the BW cluster fucks that Furman simply cannot be disassociated from.

The -ation books leading to All Hail Megatron wouldn't have worked if Furman had instead shown the full 6 stages (I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to see that played out over multiple years!).

Any of the 6 stages could have provided ample fodder for comics if Furman set out with a plan beyond "here is an even driven story about TFs". Furman could have written the book that way, but instead went the fast and dirty road.

story should be judged on it's own merits, not the writer or the editor or the company that produces it.

I generally agree. But, a writer should be judged by their work product.

Furman's previous work product does not give me any reason to think that a book by him is likely to be worth picking up, especially when the main selling point is likely to be "TFs as written by Furman". It could be good. But, there is little real reason to assume it will be, and less reason to drop another book in favor of Furman's.


Dom
-needs to check this week's Diamond list.

Dominic wrote:I generally agree. But, a writer should be judged by their work product.

As should anyone in any profession. I think I see what the difference here is. You are a general comics fan. I am not. I am a Transformers fan. Meaning that, if Furman writes a good Transformers story and then goes to write a good Batman story, you would be likely to read Batman because you like Furman's writing. I on the other hand would read the same Transformers story, but wouldn't bother with Batman because I don't give a toss about Batman, regardless of who's writing him. I tend to follow characters and/or franchises more than writers. By that I mean that... Ok, here's an example: I like Transformers. But I do not like Power Rangers. What that means is that the Power Rangers franchise could have the best written comic ever and I still wouldn't be interested because I am not a fan of the Power Rangers franchise as a whole and don't care about the characters or the setting, regardless of how well they are written.

For some reason, this doesn't extend to tv as I really enjoy My Little Pony FiM despite not being a fan of MLP previously.

As for following writers, the other problem I have with that is that not everyone is perfect all the time. Sure, Bendis may have a good run on Avengers, but he may follow that up with a shitty run on Transformers. Previous good writing does not necessarily guarantee subsequently good writing. Furman actually would be proof of that since his early TF works are regarded as some of the best. Fans went into his later works expecting him to crap gold every time and are now bashing him for not living up to their expectations.

The problem is that the powers-that-be (Hasbro, DW, IDW, etc.) have been hyping Furman for years. Every time the man is mentioned in the press, we're constantly barraged by how he's apparently such a great writer and fan favourite and shit.

There is also the fact that "fan favorite" is conflated with actually having talent.

I think I see what the difference here is. You are a general comics fan. I am not. I am a Transformers fan.

I admit to reading TF out of habit though. As much as I love Costa's run on the book, I pay more attention to TF books for the sake of habit than I would to other books. Do you think I would have bought a book as bad as "Gathering" or "Hearts of Steel" if it was not "Transformers"?

tend to follow characters and/or franchises more than writers.

This is what I do not understand about many fans (of any number of franchises). Who the hell cares about the characters and settings? As I have said before, I do not care enough about real people or places to simply "keep up" with them. For example, I kinda like history. But, I do not obsessively follow every detail. Following fictional characters to the point of reading bad comics strikes me as insane.

Previous good writing does not necessarily guarantee subsequently good writing. Furman actually would be proof of that since his early TF works are regarded as some of the best. Fans went into his later works expecting him to crap gold every time and are now bashing him for not living up to their expectations.

Actually, past performance often does predict current and future outcomes. Granted, even the best writers will not be great every time. But, work product from a person is generally going to have some consistency across jobs.

Fans went into his later works expecting him to crap gold every time and are now bashing him for not living up to their expectations.

Furman's early TF run was also helped by the fact that he was following a run of comics that were bad, both relative to non-TF comics and for the franchise. The problem is not that fans were expecting Furman to crap gold. But, over time, many fans read other things. They saw they had more options, and adjusted their standards accordingly. Furman never increased his quality, and arguably let it slide.

Furman has done plenty that is not even passable.


Dom
-tempted to follow Costa to DC.

Dominic wrote:

tend to follow characters and/or franchises more than writers.

This is what I do not understand about many fans (of any number of franchises). Who the hell cares about the characters and settings? As I have said before, I do not care enough about real people or places to simply "keep up" with them. For example, I kinda like history. But, I do not obsessively follow every detail. Following fictional characters to the point of reading bad comics strikes me as insane.

Well, my Power Rangers example is about the best I can come up with to explain this. I often regard a franchise as a hobby. Transformers is my primary hobby. I do not even like Power Rangers. At all. So it comes down to being more about being a member of a particular fandom than anything else. As a Transformers fan, I'll be interested in a comic featuring Transformers, even if it is poorly written. But, since I am not a fan of Power Rangers, I would not be interested in a Power Rangers comic regardless of how good the writing is because it's Power Rangers and I'm not interested in Power Rangers.

Now, one of the things that drew me into Transformers was the interesting characters. That should not be confused with "caring" about them. I care more about what's done with them or how their used in the story. For example: I like Shockwave (obviously). I also regard you as a friend. But, I do not care about Shockwave in the same way that I care about you as a friend. In fact, I think it would be more accurate to say that I'm interested in Shockwave as a character, but I care about my friends and family.

Even if we assume the franchise as a hobby unto itself, (and TF has recently gotten big enough for that to be reasonable), shouldn't we consider quality?

I (obviously) like "Transformers". But, if the parts of TF that I like go bad, I am not going to soldier on and make myself buy them. That is a waste of time, space and money. My skip rate for "Energon" toys was high partly for reasons of money, but also for reasons of the toys being anemic. The same applies to the possibly issue 81. I have no reason to think that it will be good, so I am not likely to bother with it.

Along similar lines, I am only interested in the characters if they are being used well. Some characters are easier to use well than others. But, it is still the use of the character more than the character that interests me.

My interest in Sunstreaker has more to do with the fact he has been used well than any inherent draw I feel towards the character.

While I do have a sentimental attachment to some characters, (such as Windcharger), I am not going to go out of my way to buy comics with that character. (I give "Dinobot Hunt" no extra points for featuring Windcharger.)

I also regard you as a friend.

But, you treated me as so much more when....we.....and then you.....


Dom
-feeling nutty today.