The Transformers (IDW, formerly "Robots in Disguise")

[andersonh1]

Probably because it still comes down to my same question of "Why do you need Prowl to be a Good Guy Autobot character when you've already got a bajillion Good Guy Autobot characters?"

Honestly, we don't have that many in IDW continuity. They've taken the whole "shades of gray" thing further than I care for, honestly.

Also still kinda interested in answers to the questions I posed about your thoughts on Good Guy Thundercracker, and the Rebels blowing up Death Stars.

I have no problem with Thundercracker making a moral turn in the right direction, no. And the rebels were a) at war with the empire and b) acting in self defense, especially in episode 4. A few more seconds, and it would have been the Rebels who died with their moon rather than the Death Star. Yeah, I've never been too happy about all the probable conscripts in stormtrooper armor who died, or the technicians, but that was very much an "us or them" scenario. I don't expect the rebels to just sit there and die, especially after Alderaan. They knew what would happen if they didn't act.

[Shockwave]

Especially when you consider that A: The Stormtroopers are all clones anyway and 2) The blew up an entire planet. That arguably makes everyone on that station a willing participant in the destruction of potentially billions of people. And they also presumably knew that they were going to try to kill a lot more on Yavin. So yeah, no tears for the Death Star.

[BWprowl]

I have no problem with Thundercracker making a moral turn in the right direction, no.

So why is it okay for a Bad Guy to do good things, but not okay for a Good Guy to do bad things?

Yeah, I've never been too happy about all the probable conscripts in stormtrooper armor who died, or the technicians, but that was very much an "us or them" scenario.

That arguably makes everyone on that station a willing participant in the destruction of potentially billions of people. And they also presumably knew that they were going to try to kill a lot more on Yavin. So yeah, no tears for the Death Star.

First off, andy, let me say that I am actually genuinely surprised and impressed that you were concerned about the deaths of the Stormtroopers and technicians. That is...solid. Really. (No for real I am not being sarcastic I am genuinely taken aback and impressed by your moral fibre in this case I cannot overstate that.)

Anyway, either of you seen Clerks? The character Randall brings up an interesting point there, that the Second Death Star, destroyed as it was while under construction, probably had a host of independent contractors working on it, who would be considered civilians, thus all the Rebels are implicit in those people's deaths. Granted, they go on to make the point that said contractors likely 'knew what they were getting into' and were responsible for their own actions in the name of business, but it's an interesting point nonetheless.

I just enjoy playing Devil's Advocate with fictional morality.

[Shockwave]

Anyway, either of you seen Clerks? The character Randall brings up an interesting point there, that the Second Death Star, destroyed as it was while under construction, probably had a host of independent contractors working on it, who would be considered civilians, thus all the Rebels are implicit in those people's deaths. Granted, they go on to make the point that said contractors likely 'knew what they were getting into' and were responsible for their own actions in the name of business, but it's an interesting point nonetheless.

I just enjoy playing Devil's Advocate with fictional morality.

Oh my God, I was so thinking about that when I typed up my response

But, to play devil's advocate to that, any contractors working on the giant Imperial Death machine would likely be seen as aiding and abeting the destruction and killing of more innocent people when one considers how many more worlds would possibly have been destroyed by the new completed Death Star. I mean, they had already blown up one planet with the first one, so it's not unreasonable to think they were going to blow up more with the second one. Also, I'm guessing said contractors would have known that while working on the BIG GIANT DEATH LASER!! "So... you want us to build a big giant laser capable of destroying a planet? Yeah, that probably sounds pretty safe."

[BWprowl]

But, to play devil's advocate to that, any contractors working on the giant Imperial Death machine would likely be seen as aiding and abeting the destruction and killing of more innocent people when one considers how many more worlds would possibly have been destroyed by the new completed Death Star. I mean, they had already blown up one planet with the first one, so it's not unreasonable to think they were going to blow up more with the second one. Also, I'm guessing said contractors would have known that while working on the BIG GIANT DEATH LASER!! "So... you want us to build a big giant laser capable of destroying a planet? Yeah, that probably sounds pretty safe."

Hey, contractors gotta feed their families too, and the Empire's probably the only one paying that way.

Hell, the more grim scenario is that contractors and engineers were being FORCED to work on building the Death Star, meaning the Rebels blew 'em all up without trying to rescue them first. Jerks!

[andersonh1]

So why is it okay for a Bad Guy to do good things, but not okay for a Good Guy to do bad things?

Well that should be obvious. Why wouldn't I cheer for a bad character to reform, but not be happy about a good character going bad?

Obviously this is fiction and without antagonists for conflict it would get pretty dull, but still... I don't enjoy seeing Prowl go down the slippery slope. Yeah, it makes for good drama and yeah it's the opposite of Thundercracker and shows that good characters can go bad, but on just a gut emotional level I don't like watching it happen.

First off, andy, let me say that I am actually genuinely surprised and impressed that you were concerned about the deaths of the Stormtroopers and technicians.

Well, if you think the situation out, you've got to have some sympathy for the people forced to work for the Empire who didn't have any say in the matter. I seriously doubt everyone on that station was Imperial Military. I"m not even sure the stormtroopers would still all be clones at that point. Luke and Biggs were planning to go to the Imperial Academy after all, so one assumes there were recruits like them among the Stormtroopers.

We're not really supposed to think about these things with Star Wars. And it's not like I"m losing sleep over the death of faceless fictional characters, but still... logic leads you to certain conclusions about these situations.

[Dominic]

Well that should be obvious. Why wouldn't I cheer for a bad character to reform, but not be happy about a good character going bad?

It is a question of what makes for better comics.

There are plenty of nice guy Autobots, even in IDW. Jazz comes to mind. Perceptor is not a bad guy. Sky Lynx, Wheeljack, BB....

But, do they make for good comics?

[andersonh1]

I suspect the list of Autobots who are jerks, sociopaths, damaged and otherwise generally unpleasant is a lot longer than the list of those with genuinely good character. Even Optimus Prime isn't untarnished in this continuity.

But to answer your question, having "nice guy Autobots" is an important element to make a better Transformers comic as far as I'm concerned. When just about every character is damaged or morally compromised in some way, why should I care what happens to any of them in a conflict?

In the current issue: is it worse if Galvatron obtains the enigma of combination, or is it worse if Prowl gets it? Does it matter? Why?

[Dominic]

When just about every character is damaged or morally compromised in some way, why should I care what happens to any of them in a conflict?

Why should you care if they are nice? Why is the predictable comic worth reading?

In the current issue: is it worse if Galvatron obtains the enigma of combination, or is it worse if Prowl gets it? Does it matter? Why?

It depends what they are going to do with the enema of comication, and who they are going to do it to. For a human, it might make more sense to back Prowl if he is likely to leave after getting the stupid thing. For a Transformer, it might make sense to back Galvatron.

The real question is why I care either way what happens on page if it is not well written and lacks ideas.


Prowl as....well, kind of a bastard, works well because Prowl is supposed to be an intelligence officer. He solves problems. And, as Roche specified in AHM, Prowl is not simply a monster looking out for himself. (Remember,Prowl's attempted coup using Kup was focused on *hiding* his influence.) Would you really prefer to read "Prowl as an 80s good guy"?

[andersonh1]

Why should you care if they are nice? Why is the predictable comic worth reading?

At this point, "nice" characters are pretty much the exception. At this point, "predictable" is unlikeable Autobots fighting unlikeable Decepticons.

In the current issue: is it worse if Galvatron obtains the enigma of combination, or is it worse if Prowl gets it? Does it matter? Why?

It depends what they are going to do with the enema of comication, and who they are going to do it to. For a human, it might make more sense to back Prowl if he is likely to leave after getting the stupid thing. For a Transformer, it might make sense to back Galvatron.

At this point, I tend to think both characters will pursue a harmful agenda if they obtain it. It doesn't matter who gets it, something bad will happen to innocents.

Would you really prefer to read "Prowl as an 80s good guy"?

Why are you presenting "Prowl the 80s good guy" and "Prowl the sneaky underhanded Autobot" as the only two options?

Going back to the example you gave in AHM, that's not too bad. If the writers want Prowl to be duplicitous and manipulative, that's a good example of how to do it. Prowl was subtle there in his methods, but at the same time he was showing a high level of arrogance by believing that he knew better than everyone else. Sure, he used facts and numbers to justify his actions, but he still displayed arrogant presumption. Contrast that with Last Stand of the Wreckers where he had no problem sending Autobots to their deaths to hide embarassing secrets, or now where he openly defies and mocks Optimus Prime and violates orders openly in front of all the other Autobots.

Now admittedly I don't care for either approach. Spotlight Prowl is my favorite Prowl-focused story that IDW has published. I'd vastly rather have Prowl as we saw him in that story than as he is now. That was a good issue, and shows that a different take on Prowl's character can work very well, without resorting to "80s good guy" characterization, whatever that means. But the readers threw one of those "fantrums" and that version of Prowl went away, even though the events of the issue are still referenced from time to time, so it did happen.

And I suspect that the fact that I enjoyed that Spotlight quite a bit explains a lot of my opinion of Prowl's current characterization. Because he's fallen a long way since then.