TF Views

138 Scourge wrote:So a couple thoughts on Kremzeek here..

Did the Autobots specifically ever say they'd never seen a Kremzeek before? If such things were around on Cybertron, then Jazz might have recognized it and thought "Ah, crap, a Kremzeek! Eff this!" and opened fire.

None of the Transformers reacted like they'd ever seen a Kremzeek before. Jazz actually explains that maybe if he shoots it they can find out what it is.

As for putting him down vs sending him elsewhere, Kremzeek ate energy, no? Like, he fed off the electricity in the things that he disrupted, didn't he? I'm just asking because if the Autobots had sent him somewhere like (bang zoom) the moon, then what's he gonna do? Sit there and go out of his tiny mind with boredom right before he starves to death. That sounds worse. Sure, he may not be expressly malicious, but in order to live he has to destroy everything he comes in contact with. That being the case, probably just putting him down is the kindest course of action.

It's not like the Autobots couldn't drop off something for Kremzeek to snack on and/or play with. Omega Supreme was routinely ferrying the Autobots back and forth between Earth and Cybertron by that point, so they could make sure he didn't starve.

Sparky Prime wrote: None of the Transformers reacted like they'd ever seen a Kremzeek before. Jazz actually explains that maybe if he shoots it they can find out what it is.

Yeah, didn't really think so, just throwing it out there. I haven't seen the episode in forever, and didn't feel like messing with it today. I've probably been fooled into thinking there may have been others by the little Easter-egg bits where he shows up on Cybertron in various TF comics. And yeah, you can tell that Jazz isn't a 'Bot of science in this episode, huh?

It's not like the Autobots couldn't drop off something for Kremzeek to snack on and/or play with. Omega Supreme was routinely ferrying the Autobots back and forth between Earth and Cybertron by that point, so they could make sure he didn't starve.

There is that, but that seems like a lot of work for a one-episode character. If there was more forethought put into the series in those days, maybe. For some reason the idea of dropping 'Zeek off somewhere reminds me of a lot of the stuff that went on in the Tom Strong comic from ABC. You'd get your one-issue threat, (or even 1/3 of an issue threat) like the Walking South American Temple, and instead of taking it out, Tom would figure out what said critter's problem was and help it to fix said problem. Then later in the series, everything from earlier in the run showed up and helped Tom fight off giant alien ants. I could see something like that in this situation...Cosmos or someone raising young Kremzeek out on the moon or wherever, and then when a super-threat shows up, Cosmos pipes up and says "I may have a soloution here..." and BLADOW! Super Kremzeek to the rescue!

But since they weren't planned out like that in the day, it's "Sorry, 'Zeek, you're gettin' Old Yellered".

G1 wasn't, I guess, what you'd call a "great cartoon" or anything, but as a toy commercial, it sure worked wonders. So it accomplished it's goal...show these toys doing some stuff, give 'em personalities, make the kids want 'em. Even when the writing of some of the episodes is horribly flawed, I can't help but still like it overall.

I'm reminded of another episode. One that's meant to be one of the more dramatic episodes of G1.

The Secret of Omega Supreme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtSBNTB6NE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPwaLGl9 ... re=related

Similar situation. The Decepticons are harvesting an asteroid for resources. Omega Supreme engages the Constructicons in battle on the asteroid, and a robo-beast is hatched mid-battle from the asteroid. The robo-beast heads to Earth and begins eating San Francisco. Once again, we have a newborn creature that's only a day old, like Kremzeek, and its natural instinct is to feed. It's like an animal; not being evil per se, just doing what it does.

Armed with the knowledge that the creature is only after food, Optimus Prime sends his Autobots out to shoot it in the face. Like Kremzeek, the Autobots prove to be completely overmatched by the robo-beast, which attacks them after being provoked. Until they shot at it, the robo-beast was merely feeding on a nearby skyscraper. Destructive, yes, but at least it was staying in one spot, minding its own business, and most importantly- wasn't shooting up the city with its laser tail. A skyscraper can be repaired. By resorting to lethal force first, the Autobots only pissed it off and caused it to go on a rampage, endangering the lives of everyone in the city.

However, unlike Kremzeek, the Autobots are forced to solve the problem by non-fatal means. Omega Supreme is able to drive the robo-beast back into space. It lands on the asteroid that it hatched from, eats the asteroid, and flies off into space with a full belly. And the lesson here is... don't shoot robo-beasts in the face! Seriously though, looking at Kremzeek and SoOS back-to-back, it seems the lesson the Autobots need to learn is to find other ways of dealing with their enemies.

... they're just lucky the newborn robo-beasts' mom didn't show up.

138 Scourge wrote:
I could see something like that in this situation...Cosmos or someone raising young Kremzeek out on the moon or wherever, and then when a super-threat shows up, Cosmos pipes up and says "I may have a soloution here..." and BLADOW! Super Kremzeek to the rescue!

OMG, I could just picture that!

After years of feeding Kremzeek, it turns out that the Autobots won't be needing the Matrix of Leadership to beat Unicron.

Funny you should mention Unicron as once again, the Autobots first instinct was to bomb him in the face too. I'm now reminded of Gomess's sig from a few months ago with Octopunch proclaiming "I shot GOD in the FACE! What did YOU do!?"

Shockwave
-Octopunch must have learned from the Autobots.

The great thing about Star Trek's future is they pretty much have unlimited resources.

I always thought it took away from the intellectual and dramatic weight of any decision they have to make.

For example, yesterday, (the day before my every other week pay day), I had to make quite dramatic decisions about my spending. Lunch was an adventure in frugality. In "Star Trek", building a house costs nothing....not even resources. (Cue the rant from Trekkie.....)

There is no in-story reason that Federation ship could not simply use applied teleportation, and possibly large bombs, to deal with the Borg more aggressively.

Not all of the species assimilated by the Borg would have anyone to re-integrate with if their entire world was assimilated. Most of those assimilated worlds would likely just want rebuild their own civilizations if they were ever freed from the Borg.

Uh, and where would these refugees go and rebuild, and using whose resources? Would post Borg planets even be livable?

How can you even say something like that? You do realize there are war crimes set in place to prevent that exact sort of thing from happening right? People would most certainly care.

Defending Germans would have been political suicide circa 1945.
War Crimes are notoriously difficult to define, and restrictions on them are difficult to enforce.

None of the Transformers reacted like they'd ever seen a Kremzeek before. Jazz actually explains that maybe if he shoots it they can find out what it is.

Which does not even make sense, as shooting and cutting an energy critter open would be difficult.

Funny you should mention Unicron as once again, the Autobots first instinct was to bomb him in the face too. I'm now reminded of Gomess's sig from a few months ago with Octopunch proclaiming "I shot GOD in the FACE! What did YOU do!?"

Well, Unicron actually did have it coming.

Joking aside, there would be a moral argument for killing Kremzeek or the rock dragon from “The Strange Secret of Omega Supreme”. But, the cartoon failed to make it.
I doubt that the cartoon really did much to influence anyone’s morals. But, that does not excuse the bad writing.

Dom-cannot defend much of the old cartoon.

Yeah, why couldn't I have bought a house in the future! Lazy Starfleet bastards. /rant.

There was actually a Voyager Episode where a ship full of Borg had actually built a society on a planet where it crashed. They used the ship as resources.

If the Jews had turned around and started doing to the Germans what had been done to them, people most certainly would have objected. Two wrongs don't make a right. And in a case of something like that it actually makes the first wrong more wrong.

And to again recap what I said before regarding Autobots, I really do think we're all agreed that "Kill first, ask questions later" should not be the first response.

Shockwave
-Really wishes I could have a replicator.

Dominic wrote:There is no in-story reason that Federation ship could not simply use applied teleportation, and possibly large bombs, to deal with the Borg more aggressively.

Actually, Voyager did once beam a photon torpedo onto a Borg probeship in an attempt to disable it (they were trying to steal a transwarp coil) but it detonated near a power matrix which destroyed it instead. And Voyager also established that Borg ships do protect some of their most critical systems with force fields.

I'd also point out that it used to be that Federation starships couldn't use the transporters when their shields were up, and it's not a good idea to fight the Borg with the shields down. It's only been newer starships like Voyager or the Enterprise E that have been shown using transporters with their shields up.

Uh, and where would these refugees go and rebuild, and using whose resources? Would post Borg planets even be livable?

As Shockwave said, a group of survivors from a crashed Borg ship used parts of their ship to build their own society. So a post assimilated world should have plenty of resources to work with. And I don't see any reason why an assimilated world wouldn't be habitable. After all, we've seen Borg ships maintain habitable conditions when ever Federation crew members have beamed over, it only makes sense that the Borg would keep a planet habitable as well.

Defending Germans would have been political suicide circa 1945.
War Crimes are notoriously difficult to define, and restrictions on them are difficult to enforce.

Defending innocent German civilians would not have been political suicide.
And War Crimes are not that difficult to define or enforce. In fact, the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal has such a definition for these crimes (among others, like crimes against peace and crimes against humanity): "Violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity."

Shockwave wrote: And to again recap what I said before regarding Autobots, I really do think we're all agreed that "Kill first, ask questions later" should not be the first response.

I'm good with that.

[quote] Defending innocent German civilians would not have been political suicide.
[quote]

I would disagree. Nobody would, nor should, take a fall for enemy civilians.


[quote] And to again recap what I said before regarding Autobots, I really do think we're all agreed that "Kill first, ask questions later" should not be the first response. [quote]

I accidently forgot to answer this both times it was posted. But, I was also enjoying the awkward silence it seemed to generate. But, then Crab had to go and ruin it for me.....

And, yeah, I would agree that indiscriminate killing is best avoided. But, there is a difference between not going for the kill option as the first choice and taking it off the table entirely.


Dom
-just do it quietely for the love of.....