My Little Pony discussion

[Gomess]

the appeal that MLP has for grown (straight) men.

Because it's already so obvious why grown gay men would watch it, right? All the pink and stuff.

I was under the impression most people here like it because it's a well-written kids' show, which is something many of us have wanted since we were..... kids.

[BWprowl]

He initially linked it to a similar trend with "Sailor Moon". But, I corrected him, explaining what "lolicon" was. His misunderstanding of SM aside though, he might have been on to something about MLP.

Y'know quite a few people might've liked Sailor Moon because it was a decently entertaining transforming hero show. A lot of people are into that sort of thing. S'why I watch both Kamen Rider and Pretty Cure. It's not all about ogling the charactrs

(I'd also point out that with the exception of Chibi-Moon, none of the Sailor Moon girls could be considered "loli", but anyway)

I have a theory, (not relating to the professor's thoughts), about why MLP plays better to Transfans than the actual TF cartoon does. It is less schizophrenic. "TR Prime" seems to be inconsistently written and branded. One minute, it is cutesy and zany, with ample (even excessive) kid appeal. The next minute, something terrible (and potentially kid-traumatizing) happens.

In contrast, MLP is pretty consistent. Yes, Nightmare Moon attempts a coup and there are threats in Ponyland. But, Twilight and the gang are not finding dead things everywhere. None of the ponies are spot-lighted eating candy and ice cream...moments before being slaughtered for shock-value. Similarly, in MLP, there are no (from what I have seen) pre-packaged kid ID characters that are annoying unto themselves.

The writers of MLP know what they are writing, and are okay with it (which we men can respect). On the other hand, TFP is like the insecure man-child that is unsure of himself and gives us less reason to trust him.

That's an awful lot of words for "Because Friendship is Magic is good and Transformers Prime sucks", but I get it.

Anyway, what Gomess said. Why assume there's some benign underlying psychology to the show's appeal? I just like it because it's an entertaining little cartoon. Considering most of us spend our time watching cartoons for ten-year-old boys, there's nothing wrong with watching the cartoon for ten-year-old girls on the same channel, s'long as it's a *good* cartoon.

It's the sort of show that just generates "happy". It's ridiculous sparkly rainbow unicorn magic can put me a stupid good mood after watching it. It's similar to the appeal/affects of Robot Unicorn Attack.

[Gomess]

Y'know quite a few people might've liked Sailor Moon because it was a decently entertaining transforming hero show.

Thank you. Sailor Moon was shown at the same time as Dragon Ball Z over here back in the 90s. Wasn't a hard choice for me to make. One actually had a plot. Hell, it was basically a less patronising version of Power Rangers. Two words: Chocolate. Parfait. ='[

(I'd also point out that with the exception of Chibi-Moon, none of the Sailor Moon girls could be considered "loli", but anyway)

Also thank you! I didn't think Dom would just chuck a word like that around without knowing what it means. To argue that Sailor Moon's appeal is solely underage (which we don't even know they are; everyone I knew assumed they were around 16, which is the legal age here) titillation is just asinine.

Why assume there's some benign underlying psychology to the show's appeal?

It's a way of justifying one's own appreciation for something they "know they shouldn't like". Gotta wonder if Dom's too embarrassed to tell his real-life friends he's been watching MLP. =p

[Dominic]

Uh, no actually. I have sent a couple of texts/voice mails to people telling them that they should give the show a shot and that it is better than I am given to understand TFP is. (Gomess, remember that "Merry Christmas" picture I sent? Does that strike you as the act of a man who is insecure in his masculinity.) And, yes, some of the texts and voice messages were to members of this board. But, a few of them were also to local friends.

Also thank you! I didn't think Dom would just chuck a word like that around without knowing what it means. To argue that Sailor Moon's appeal is solely underage (which we don't even know they are; everyone I knew assumed they were around 16, which is the legal age here) titillation is just asinine.

"Loli" means "attracted to children" correct? 16 would qualify as a child in my book. (When I say that I "hate kids", I include 16 year olds.)

In the US it varies from state to state, but it generally (as I understand it), works like this: 16 is the age of consent unless the parents tell the other party to back off. (This works regardless of the other party's age. There might be graduated penalties for non-compliance depending on the age of the other party. But, as I do not have kids and have less intention of dating one, I have had little reason to research this in great detail.) 18 is the age of unambiguous adulthood, barring drinking.

The nude transformation scenes in the original would qualify as kiddie porn by US standards. And, I would imagine that was a draw for some people. And, for fuck's sake, they are dressed like school girls.

That's an awful lot of words for "Because Friendship is Magic is good and Transformers Prime sucks", but I get it.

Yeah, but I was gong for "what makes MLP good and TFP suck".

Because it's already so obvious why grown gay men would watch it, right? All the pink and stuff.

I specified straight men in order to close off the obvious answer. Gay friends of mine have explained to me that gay males are often members of a "cult of beauty" (for lack of a better term) that involves idolizing feminine qualities either in the form of a celebrity Diva (Judy Garland, Marilyn Monroe, Lady Gaga) or extreme (often grotesque) feminine traits. ("Barbie" has a sizeable gay male follwoing.)

Given that ponies are supposed to be cute/pretty, I wanted to make sure that the professor did not misunderstand the dynamic I was asking about. When I initially approached him, I thought he was a Sociology guy. I specified Psychology here so you would know his background. His answers were more sociological than psychological, but that is beside the point.

And, yes, it is a good show. I never said it was not. (I would probably watch another episode of MLP before wathing "GI Joe: Renegades" again.) But, you have to admit that it is unusual for this fandom, (or most any group of grown men), to find something pitched at children, (little girls no less), so appealling. Yes, I am secure enough to admit that MLP has a certain appeal. I felt no less secure buying the MLP toys that I have than I do buying a pack of Minicons.

But, rather than just taking the facile road and saying "well it is good so I like it", I was curious about why the show was good, and why so many other grown men deviated so much from the norm, even within a normally rigid fandom.


Dom
-almost feels bad about the idea of putting the mouse figures some MLP figures come with in Pinky Pie's candy shop set.

[Gomess]

The nude transformation scenes in the original would qualify as kiddie porn by US standards.

Which is.. why they were left in the US version..?

And, for fuck's sake, they are dressed like school girls.

Because they *are* schoolgirls.

I dunno man, you're going a long way to argue that Sailor Moon is loli when it ain't. Yes, I'm sure three people out there watch Sailor Moon for titillation, but the fact is the majority of Sailor Moon's viewers were people who admired strong female characters in a fantasy-action context. If we want Sailor Moon titillation, we can just turn SafeSearch off.

Sure Sailor Moon is a victim of fetishisation, as many MANY TV shows aimed at kids and teenagers are, but I will say again: calling it porn is incredibly asinine. You realise it was created by a straight woman, right? Hey, maybe she's just suppressing those lesbian ephebophiole tendencies.

Am I right in assuming FiM was also created by a straight woman?

[Dominic]

Maybe we have a different standard on this sort of thing. Maybe, we saw different people who liked it for different reasons. The fact is that there is a not inconsiderable sub-set of fandom that likes smutty young girl imagery. And, Sailor Moon qualifies.

If something is intended to, or reasonably could, put somebody in an erotic frame of mind, you have to ask if it qualifies as porn. And, when it involves "fetishized" images of kids, (especially being shown to kids), that should also raise questions. (For the record, I have always had a low tolerance for that sort of thing, even less so as more of my friends have become parents over the years.)

Because they *are* schoolgirls.

Which kind of goes with loli-appeal then.

You realise it was created by a straight woman, right?

And that has exactly what to do with anything?


Dom
-back to ponies....

[Gomess]

You realise it was created by a straight woman, right?

And that has exactly what to do with anything?

You're arguing purely from an audience effect perspective, discounting the fact that these characters were designed by human beings with desires and prejudices; in Sailor Moon's case, an individual who doubtlessly didn't intend her characters to be sex objects. So, no, I don't feel I have to ask myself whether or not Sailor Moon qualifies as porn, because it clearly doesn't.

I'm sure plenty of anatomically-inaccurate pony-loving furries watch FiM to get their jollies, though.

[Dominic]

Why are you assuming that a straight woman would not realize that sex sells? In Japan, where the property was originally created and marketed, sexualizing children sells.

And, more importantly, why are you saying that a straight woman simply would/could not exploit the above information?

And, in any case, audiences can misuse what they get. (Literary theory sanctifies this idea.) And, there were a fair amount of male fans of the show would were watching it for loli-appeal.


Dom
-really curious about bringing up the creator being straight.

[Gomess]

Your argument mostly seemed to hinge on the "naked(?) transformation sequence", which I'll say again, was in the US version, as far as I know. Oh, and the fact that they're schoolgirls. Because of course that automatically = sexualisation in Japan, a country that produces new media based in a school context every frickin' day, for a massive variety of audiences! No. "Schoolgirl" is not a dirty word in Japan, like it is in our respective countries.

From the points of reference you've made, Dom, I'm just suspicious that your knowledge of Japan comes solely from Encyclopedia Dramatica. It is not "Child Porn Land". Yes, sexualisation of younger people is more *overt* in Japanese media, but it is just as *common* as it is in the States.

Pretty sure I explained my reasons for bringing up the author's sexuality. How you can read anything she's said or written, or hell, *watch an episode of Sailor Moon* and assume its main selling point was sex appeal boggles my mind.

...Did Sailor Moon even feature any actual fanservice, beyond the average number of cheerleader-style panty shots? Dom, you need to watch some more recent anime featuring large female casts to put this in context, because I think you're out of your element and mostly just discussing from a position of distaste. Prowl can probably name ten overly sexualised anime for kids off the top of his head that make Sailor Moon look like the Teletubbies.

[Dominic]

I know that the naked transform was in the Japanese, not the US version of the show. And, I am not saying that SM was the smuttiest thing out there. But, there were people who treated it as light fap fodder.

Pretty sure I explained my reasons for bringing up the author's sexuality.

You seemed to be implying that a woman (or at least a straight woman) could/would not write smut.


Dom
-so, back to ponies.