TF Views

Shockwave wrote:I'm sorry, but I have to seriously disagree in the case of the Borg. They're locusts. Intergalactic locusts. They swarm a planet, consume everthing and leave no trace of the society or civilization that was there. And that's their only single goal for everyone and everything in the universe. The only thing they do is torturously enslave sentient beings and their only goal is to perpetuate that as much as possible.

The Borg don't see it that way. They see it as "helping" others and themselves get closer to perfection through assimilation, adding those species "biological and technological distinctiveness" to their own. Not that that justifies their actions, but still... You're not looking at the whole picture.

So my question now would be how many races/species would have to fall before wiping them out is considered a public service?

So by this reasoning, any Empire that conquers others should be completely wiped out? Should we say "good bye" to the Klingon Empire then? No. Like it or not, they have certain sovereign rights. Not to say the Federation should just sit back and let it happen, but despite the Borg essentially enslaving races, that doesn't mean they should, in turn, be denied the right to exist. There is never a point that would be considered a "public service". As I've said before, the Federation was founded on principles of universal liberty, rights, and equality. To take it that far would betray everything they stand for.

Sure, it's easy to say "just liberate them", but that's not really a viable option MOST of the time. Case in point: First Contact (I know, it's an example post queen, but it illustrates my point just the same). There is a scene near the end where Lily is actually mad at Picard for not trying to save one of his crewmen. Are you fucking kidding me?

That's not really what Lily was getting at though... She was trying to convince Picard to make the decision to stop the Borg by blowing up the ship, instead of to keep fighting his personal vendetta, or as she put it: "Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale". She brought up that crewman more as a way to illustrate this to Picard, having noticed how callous he was toward killing an assimilated member of his own crew, blinded by his hate of the Borg. And after that discussion, having realized the error of his decisions as of late, Picard goes to save Data, knowing full well the ship is set to self destruct. This is reminiscent of his crew risking everything just to save his life when he was assimilated, despite obviously less than ideal circumstances.

Answering genocide with genocide absolutely is a publice service if it prevents more genocide. Which is like committing muder to prevent there being any more murders.

No, this is a fallacy. A murder even to prevent more murders is still a murder, no matter how you look at it. And it's still a crime, no matter how you try to justify it.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Shockwave wrote:I'm sorry, but I have to seriously disagree in the case of the Borg. They're locusts. Intergalactic locusts. They swarm a planet, consume everthing and leave no trace of the society or civilization that was there. And that's their only single goal for everyone and everything in the universe. The only thing they do is torturously enslave sentient beings and their only goal is to perpetuate that as much as possible.

The Borg don't see it that way. They see it as "helping" others and themselves get closer to perfection through assimilation, adding those species "biological and technological distinctiveness" to their own. Not that that justifies their actions, but still... You're not looking at the whole picture.

And Hitler saw it as exterminating the weaker subsect of the human race.

[/Godwin's law]

Onslaught Six wrote:And Hitler saw it as exterminating the weaker subsect of the human race.

[/Godwin's law]

You didn't read the whole post did you? Like I said, "not that that justifies their actions" and "Not to say the Federation should just sit back and let it happen". And genocide became an international crime because of what the Nazis did. But that doesn't mean we should wipe out everyone of German decent because of the Nazis crimes. Same thing with the Borg, except in their case, most of them actually are the victims themselves. That would be like punishing the people in the concentration camps for what the Nazis did to them. Does that sound right to you?

The Nazi thing doesn't really work. The Jews in the camps weren't also the ones commiting the genocidal attrocities. My basic point is that killing is wrong, enslavement is wrong and people that kill and enslave need to be stopped by whatever means possible. Unfortunately, that ultimately means either enslaving or killing them.

Aaaand just to bring it back to TF discussion a little... and away from Nazi discussion...


Kremzeek!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ZzU9Zcrig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWq2tTfOS7k

Lots of things about Autobot behavior in this episode that stand out. For starters, when Megatron first creates Kremzeek, he seems to have little problem with the guy. Kremzeek perches on his finger and hops in the box when Megatron opens it for him. Of course, he doesn't like being confined and breaks out after the box has been dropped off at Autobot HQ. Kremzeek is pretty wild at this point and starts bouncing and yelling all over the place.

* Kremzeek jumps into a hallway where Jazz, Smokescreen, Grapple and Sparkplug are walking. Without knowing what or who it is and without trying to communicate with it, Jazz immediately shoots at Kremzeek. It's important to note that at this point Kremzeek hasn't done anything to the Autobots or their base.

* After being shot at, Kremzeek cuts loose on the Autobots and destroys everything in their base, incapacitating several Autobots along the way. They can thank Jazz for provoking a fight.

* Blaster's 1st course of action once capturing Kremzeek is to fry it using his own power. By "fry" I'm sure he means to kill it. This has the adverse effect of creating dozens of Kremzeeks. Again, the Autobots' willingness to use lethal means only escalates the problem.

* The Autobots enact a plan to send Kremzeek to the Decepticons. The plan works and Kremzeek eats the energy magnet that the Decepticons had been using to drain the Earth of its electrical energy. The Decepticons flee and Kremzeek is the unwitting hero of the day. I thought this was important, because it shows that Kremzeek isn't aligned with either the bots or the cons. Its merely operating on instinct. When properly directed, Kremzeek proves to be a powerful weapon against the Decepticons.

* Prime decides to kill Kremzeek with the reason that, "it's too dangerous," and my personal favorite, "it doesn't belong in this world." If he wasn't keeping score, the war that the bots and cons brought to Earth is dangerous too and neither they nor their enemies belong in this world. Bumblebee objects to killing Kremzeek, but Prime overrides him. But even Prime can't bring himself to look as he pulls the trigger. Why not?

* Just as with Jazz firing on Kremzeek and Blaster trying to "fry" the little critter, this latest lethal countermeasure is rewarded with the appearance of one last Kremzeek that the Autobots missed. Kremzeek tears through Japan once more with the Autobots in hot pursuit.

This is a fun little episode that gives the Autobots exactly what they deserve- one big headache. :Kremzeek
Throughout the episode Kremzeek continuously jumps in and out of every electrical device he can find, destroying everything in his path. So he's established as a threat, but not necessarily because he's malicious. He comes across as playful and hyper-active. The problem is that he literally can't touch anything electrical without causing damage. Not to mention that he's only a day old and acts like a rampaging toddler.

Kind of reminds me of Transmutate, just more destructive.

Shockwave wrote:The Nazi thing doesn't really work. The Jews in the camps weren't also the ones commiting the genocidal attrocities.

You're missing the point, being that the assimilated Borg are just as much the victims in their situation. They don't deserve to be punished for getting assimilated.

My basic point is that killing is wrong, enslavement is wrong and people that kill and enslave need to be stopped by whatever means possible. Unfortunately, that ultimately means either enslaving or killing them.

I don't agree. There are other options to consider.

Mako Crab wrote:Aaaand just to bring it back to TF discussion a little... and away from Nazi discussion...

Yes, thank you..

It it interesting that Optimus Prime even says that Kremzeek has to be destroyed, with Bumblebee being the only one to really raise any objections from the Autobots. If they could "zap him" to another location, like they did to defeat the Decepticons, couldn't they just send him to another planet or something where he wouldn't be a threat? Seems like they could have found another solution to that situation...

Mako Crab wrote:* Kremzeek jumps into a hallway where Jazz, Smokescreen, Grapple and Sparkplug are walking. Without knowing what or who it is and without trying to communicate with it, Jazz immediately shoots at Kremzeek. It's important to note that at this point Kremzeek hasn't done anything to the Autobots or their base.

Besides being in it! I mean, the Autobots are the good guys, but like Dom says--that's not a license to be 'stupid.' If you're at war and there's an unidentified object jumping around in your headquarters, you shoot at it. No questions.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Shockwave wrote:The Nazi thing doesn't really work. The Jews in the camps weren't also the ones commiting the genocidal attrocities.

You're missing the point, being that the assimilated Borg are just as much the victims in their situation. They don't deserve to be punished for getting assimilated.

Hey, fuck those people. Look at any of the main characters; they never get Borg assimilated, do they? And why? Because they're not dumb enough to do that. If you're dumb enough to get assimilated by the Borg, then you were never going to do anything to begin with.

It is also a question of the characters going out of their way if the Borg in question:
-a) was a friend of theres
-b) could be retrofitted into a smokin' hot chick.

Pasty white-faced males who nobody knows by name are completely fair game though. (They are so boring an unattractive that you are doing them a favor by killing them.)

You didn't read the whole post did you? Like I said, "not that that justifies their actions" and "Not to say the Federation should just sit back and let it happen". And genocide became an international crime because of what the Nazis did. But that doesn't mean we should wipe out everyone of German decent because of the Nazis crimes.

And, the quickest way to stop the Borg from killing all of those nice people and aliens would be to wipe them out in one bloodless move. Kiling the Borg would not only prevent them from making future attacks, but it would let the Federation allocate resources to other projects that add value, rather than simply preserve it. (Security and military expenditures add jobs, but no not produce wealth or progress.)


And, had the world decided to be done with Germany circa 1945, no reasonable person would have complained. Trying to drag the planet into another Dark Age warrants a pretty hefty response.)

Dom
-continued next post.

For some reason, this computer skips when the scroll-bar appears next to the text-box.

Ah, anyway...

The problem with episodes like Kremzeek is that that they are badly written attempts at humour. The good guys act in the moment, in ways that are only acceptable if you are a small child, know the script, and/or assume no consequences for anything....ever.

Yeah, Jazz and co are heals in this episode.


Dom
-and we complain about the Bayformers.....

Sparky Prime wrote:

Shockwave wrote:The Nazi thing doesn't really work. The Jews in the camps weren't also the ones commiting the genocidal attrocities.

You're missing the point, being that the assimilated Borg are just as much the victims in their situation. They don't deserve to be punished for getting assimilated.

My basic point is that killing is wrong, enslavement is wrong and people that kill and enslave need to be stopped by whatever means possible. Unfortunately, that ultimately means either enslaving or killing them.

I don't agree. There are other options to consider.

Mako Crab wrote:Aaaand just to bring it back to TF discussion a little... and away from Nazi discussion...

Yes, thank you..

It it interesting that Optimus Prime even says that Kremzeek has to be destroyed, with Bumblebee being the only one to really raise any objections from the Autobots. If they could "zap him" to another location, like they did to defeat the Decepticons, couldn't they just send him to another planet or something where he wouldn't be a threat? Seems like they could have found another solution to that situation...

I didn't miss the point, I understood what you were saying, I was just saying it's a bad analogy. Which it is. As for other options I should clarify that I was way oversimplifying my point. I used "enslavement" in the second instance as a catch all to include other options like prison or banishment or incapacitation because even under those options you're still forcing someone to do something they don't want to do. It's basically my Prime vs. Megatron argument. Prime's motto is "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." Should that extend to sentient beings whose only goal is to infringe upon the rights and freedoms of other sentient beings? So Prime fights Megatron and what does Prime do when he defeats Megatron? Does he kill him? Or imprison him for his crimes? If he imprisons Megatron, he's taking away the freedom of another sentient being, thus going against his motto. If he kills him, he's going against his belief in the sanctity of life. It's a catch 22. And so are the Borg.