TF Views

Dominic wrote:I just got the impression that Furman thought it would be really kewl to have a 6 stage plan get disrupted, and he never considered that an actual 6 stage plan might make for a good story unto itself. Maybe Furman, like other writers and fans, has been so immersed in the franchise that they cannot keep perspective while writing it.

It could work, maybe as a limited run like "Maximum Dinobots". It wouldn't really work as the initial story though, it would have to be something to come later. Reason being that the story for that x-issue run would be all about Decepticons and we'd never have anyone else introduced until like 14 issues into it when one of their conquests finally goes wrong.

Dominic wrote:The problem here is that "staying true" requires franchises to become boxed into themselves, and increasingly self reverential/referential. Nich Roche is not a good writer because he is a TF fan. He is a good writer who happens to be a TF fan, and happens to be working on TF.

Not necessarily. As long as the core CONCEPT is there, it works, and there's always room to do something new and different with a given concept. And I am firmly of the opinion that fans shouldn't write fiction for things they're fans of. Roche being the exception.

Dominic wrote:The inverse applies with Galvatron and Jhiaxus. Their IDW-iterations are *new*. Galvatron predates GW. Jhiaxus, less so. But, IDW Galvatron and Jhiaxus are *much* newer than all but the most recent GW. And, IDW Jhiaxus is about as naked a rip-off of a unique GW character as I have ever seen. He even *looks* like a Chaos Marine. Furman "re-imagined" characters.....as knock-offs of another properties characters. Shame on him.

That's treading awfully close to an accusation of plagiarism. It's not, but it's darn close. I think if you can prove that he had extensive exposure to/knowledge of GW or WH products and the universe or property then you might have a leg to stand on and even then it's still pretty shaky. I haven't actually played WH, but I see the miniatures everywhere in the comic shops I go to when gaming with friends and I could argue that the WH stuff looks just like every other Halo/Mechwarrior/Gundam, etc... "Space marine" property out there. As AH1 said, Galvatron and Jhiaxus are archetypes and pretty common sci-fi ones at that. I don't really think you could legitimately sit there and say that they're knock offs of any one property over any other.

And now that I think about it, it's the artist, not Simon who determined the character model for Jhiaxus, so if we're gonna blame someone for ripping off a WarHamster design let's put it where it actually belongs.

Dominic wrote:Coulda sworn they beat him. Either way, having any of them live after facing SixShot is dodgy.

Nope, they just stalled for time long enough to get into orbit and then two seconds later Megatron ordered him somewhere else. That's really the only reason they actually survived.

Dominic wrote:But, Furman has such a long, and until recently positive, history with the franchise that I get the impression he was given freedom to do as he liked. If nothing else, editing his work or asking him to change something may well have been intimidating.

I could see that for his DW run maybe, but his IDW not so much. If only because his DW work by that time had already tarnished his reverent reputation with a lot of the fanbase. Not me personally, but I've heard enough anti-Furmanism to know that he's really not that revered anymore.

Dominic wrote:The Reavers, show up, are bad asses, then they get beaten by the next big thing. Bravo Simon.

Not the next big thing, ANOTHER big thing that was already going on at the same time. And there were any number of other big things that could have done it: The Machination and Scorponok, Monstructor, Thunderwing, hell even Ultra Magnus or Arcee or Sixshot (who almost did twice) or... honestly the list goes on because there was a lot going on. There's a difference between next and another.

And I honestly don't even think the Reavers were ever supposed to actually be taken seriously or actually considered bad asses at any point. I mean they show up "look at us, we destroy worlds so they won't fight" Sixshot's all "I can kill you just by crossing my eyes, piss off".

Dominic wrote:Dom
-wants Dan Abnett on TF.

Wants who to do what now?

It wouldn't really work as the initial story though, it would have to be something to come later.

The initial story could be the build up. The Transformers could be moving around quietly. While having the main book show the plan unfolding on earth, a companion series could show the same process happening on another planet. On Earth, it could be interrupted by somesuch or another. But, the complete process could happen elsewhere.

And I am firmly of the opinion that fans shouldn't write fiction for things they're fans of. Roche being the exception.

Generally, I agree with this. Besides honest mistakes resulting from "expert blindspots", there is always the chance that the writer will be a self-indulgent git like Johns at DC or Sipher from the Fan Club.

And now that I think about it, it's the artist, not Simon who determined the character model for Jhiaxus, so if we're gonna blame someone for ripping off a WarHamster design let's put it where it actually belongs.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only....rodents. To be a mouse in such times is to be one of among untold billions. Rats munch pellets. Large guinea pigs stride across fields of wood chips. The only sound is the squeaking of excercise wheels and the glugging of water from hanging bottles.........

(Trekkies had some hilarious mis-keys yesterday huh?)

Furman wrote the back-story for IDW Jhiaxus. And, that is *very* close to Fabius Bile's. So, yeah, I am assuming the worst.

Not me personally, but I've heard enough anti-Furmanism to know that he's really not that revered anymore.

He still has his supporters. (I know one or two of them. No, that is not set-up for the obvious, "I know both of them" joke.)

He actually did some good work at DW. "Fortress" was good. And, "War Within" had its moments. Granted, much of that was Figueroa's art. But, Furman pulled his weight. "War Within II" was also good, if not wholly consistent with the first series.

Not the next big thing, ANOTHER big thing that was already going on at the same time. And there were any number of other big things that could have done it: The Machination and Scorponok, Monstructor, Thunderwing, hell even Ultra Magnus or Arcee or Sixshot (who almost did twice) or... honestly the list goes on because there was a lot going on. There's a difference between next and another.

And much of that list is "big huge epic" stuff, which brings out the worst in Furman.

Wants who to do what now?

I want to see Dan Abnett writing "Transformers" again. He started his career on TF and "GI Joe", and has grown as a writer these last 25 years.


Dom
-seriously, Dan Abnett. IDW needs to make it happen.

Indeed, I definitely think Thunderwing was wasted potential. In G1, Furman took a relatively characterless toy and turned him into a strong character that would last the test of time--I *still* want a new Thunderwing toy. (Alongside Octopunch. To go with Bludgeon!) In IDW, however, he was a wasted opportunity.

No, not a mis-key, my friends and I have been calling it Warhamster for years now. The future imagery was hilarious though

WarHammer is a good example of a franchise stumbling after going too far into the "GrimDark" as it is often parodied.

Too much whimsy can be annoying, (see most any of the recect TF fan club stories). Setting matters as well. A war-torn future should not be a place of whimsy. But, GW made some of their stories unintentional self parody. And, they took out funny characters, like the Squats.

And, while Orks are pretty dreadful, they can be nicely absurd when presented from an Ork point of view. ("Deff Skwadron" was hilarious.)

The "Horus Heresy" series is generally good to excellent. But, that seems to be *very* carefully controlled.

Dom
-really not a fan of the "Space Wolf" novels.

Dominic wrote:

Why hire someone to be creative if you're only going to limit their creativity? Why not just have the editor write the stories?

Most companies supervise their employees. Hiring someone to do a job is not the same as saying "here do the job as you see fit, as if you are the boss, regardless of your qualifications". A manager supervising or directing a crew is not the same as a manager doing the work themself.

Furman's worse excesses tend to emerge when he is writing under certain conditions. Therefor, an editor should do what they can to minimize those conditions.

Opinions on that may vary from reader to reader and editor to editor.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. I'm a graphic designer, working in the marketing department of a building products company. Say I'm designing a blast fax, and I set up a layout and submit it for proofing and review, as typically happens. Now I was hired for my ability to design, based on my portfolio of past work and jobs held, so my qualifications got me the job.

The boss can do one of two things, assuming the design isn't approved right off the bat, and both have happened to me. He can say "Here's what doesn't work", or "here's what needs some emphasis", or whatever, and give it to me to solve the design problem. Or he can do what he's done on several occasions and sketch a layout in detail that differs from mine and hand it back to me to produce. When that happens, it's no longer my design, even if I am the one creating it electronically. I always figure if he was going to do that, why assign me the project in the first place? Why not just do it himself? I'm not opposed to taking suggestions and making improvements, but I draw the line at setting up someone else's design.

I see the same thing with Furman. It might be one thing for the editor to lay down some general parameters, but when it comes to creating the mechanics of the plot and characters, that's the job Furman was hired to do, based on his past work and qualifications. It's not the editor's job, and I wouldn't accept an editor who constantly did my work for me, as it were. My boss does that from time to time, and so I tolerate it, but if it was a daily or weekly occurrence, my professional pride would compel me to look elsewhere for work.

This is also a case of, "Dude, this is Simon Furman, the guy who wrote most of the stories that made us like TF in the first place. Who the hell are we to say what he can and can't do?"

It's a similar case with, say, Frank Miller. I'm sure somebody along the line read the script to All-Star Batman & Robin and was all, "Okay, 'I'm the Goddamn Batman?' That will not work. On the other hand, he's Frank Miller."

I see what you are saying. It is very easy to be taken in by a famous or ranking party, even if they are not *trying* to be misleading.

When I was working as a manager about a year back, one of the things I had to do was know what my employees would say in a given situation. There were some guys who I could trust to work, (and work well), but I could not trust for advice. They had a very steep learning curve when it came to answering questions. They would give the answer they thought I wanted, (usually one favorable to what they thought I was trying to do), rather than one that might have been more accurate. I do not blame them for this, as many offices reward exactly that.

Similarly, I have been in situations where I thought the boss wanted honesty.....and in fact did not. (Yeah, this went badly, and is part of the reason I am not longer a manager.)

When that happens, it's no longer my design, even if I am the one creating it electronically. I always figure if he was going to do that, why assign me the project in the first place? Why not just do it himself? I'm not opposed to taking suggestions and making improvements, but I draw the line at setting up someone else's design.

There is a difference between coming up with a plan and carrying it out. The ability to smartly execute a plan, (regardless of who came up with it), is as important as the ability to come up with the plan in the first place.

Keep in mine, the plan you execute might just be part of a larger plan your boss is worried about. He trusts you to execute it well while worries about other things. (Though, I admit, it is nice when the boss fills you in on the larger plan, rather than just saying "do this".)

When I worked at a law firm a few years back, I had lawyers giving me relatively small and quick jobs. (It was rare than I had any task take more than 15-20 minutes. But, I often had several at any given time.) The simple fact was that their efforts were better spent elsewhere. Yes, I was the lowest guy on the totem pole. But, delegating certain tasks to me freed them up to work on other things with the assumption that the minor, if necessary, details were being seen to.

Granted, not all of the lawyers were nice about it, (one was frequently a total ass about it). But, that was my job. There was another lawyer who once gave me several hours worth of *very* small jobs, (including "haul this stuff to the trash"), while he worked on a larger task. He apologized for seeming lazy. (He was actually one of the nicest guys I have worked for.)

The same idea could apply to writing. (The editor would come up with a plot, and parameters for the script. The writer would actually deliver the script.)


Dom
-really honked off the Dean....oh boy.

Dominic wrote:The same idea could apply to writing. (The editor would come up with a plot, and parameters for the script. The writer would actually deliver the script.)

That's what happened with Emerald Twilight, I believe. The editors came up wiht the storyline and hired Ron Marz to actually write it. So that does certainly happen.

Onslaught Six wrote:This is also a case of, "Dude, this is Simon Furman, the guy who wrote most of the stories that made us like TF in the first place. Who the hell are we to say what he can and can't do?"

Reminds me of J.J. Abrams commenting about directing Leonard Nimoy as Spock. He said something like "what exactly am I doing here? This guy's been playing this part for 40 years!"

Furman has a long track record with the franchise, and clearly he was hired because of that. The editors at IDW liked his work, and clearly thought his reputation with the fans would help sell books. And it did, at least at first. The product wasn't as successful as they wanted it to be. But his reputation and work were seen as an asset to IDW, and truthfully they still are given the foundation he laid for their fiction, which allows them to distinguish themselves from past TF fiction. He did the job he was hired to do, it just didn't entirely click with the fans.

Who said anything about purists? Even a general comic reader picking up a coming entitled "The Transformers" is going to expect to read about Transformers.

True. But, I am saying it is a mistake to always write about TFs doing exactly the same thing every time. If nothing else, I want to see them using new tactics and tech.

Who cares if some other planet gets destroyed though? For the concept to have emotional resonance, it either has to happen to Earth, or else a lot of time has to be spent building up somewhere else so that the audience cares about it enough to care when it's destroyed.

The series showing the successful execution of an "Infiltration" could be spent building up the planet. And, how much of the importance of a story needs to be based on caring about the characters?

One is big cosmic menace, the other is at least more grounded in reality when it comes to motivation (think eugenics), if not in execution. And since it's a fantasy series about shapeshifting alien robots, I don't expect it to be entirely down to earth.

The problem is that Furman's execution tends to jump to the "OMFG Cosmic huge epix". Haver you ever read that "Terminator" story he wrote? In the first issue, Furman not only introduces a super-duper Terminator with energy weapons and a built-in time machine, he starts to over-write the movies. Wow. Creative work there.

Or maybe for a race as powerful as Transformers are, you need a big threat.

Big robots are not a fantastical enough thing to read/write about?

Early on, the franchise did not have Unicron showing up every day. No need to do that now.

I know he brought in Unicron in the US G1 comic. At the time, it was novel to see the villain from the movie turn up in the comic. It was new and different and not overdone, and it was a good move, which gave the series some direction.

If nothing else, the character's reactions in issue 75 showed how rare a Unicron appearance was.

G2 gave us the Swarm and the second generation Transformers, both interesting concepts, along with the Liege Maximo which we never got to see apart from one panel. It's Hasbro who has the responsibility for placing Unicron in AEC, so Furman can't be blamed for using the character in the comics he wrote for Dreamwave, which were otherwise focused on the Transformers and not some cosmic menace. The Universe comics, again, had Unicron as part of Hasbro's backstory.

The swarm and Cybertronian Empire from G2 were consistent with the general idea of G2, which was progress and growth.

Unicron in AEC was just "wow, look how kewl". And, even if Furman had to use Unicron, he did a bad job of it. (And, lets not forgot the 3H "Universe" comics.....)

I checked out the link, and I honestly can't see a resemblance, beyond 'mad scientist'. And that's a pretty broad generalization.

Mad scientist who conducts life-warping experiments....and followed his warlard master into a dark dimension of.......

That's what happened with Emerald Twilight, I believe. The editors came up wiht the storyline and hired Ron Marz to actually write it. So that does certainly happen.

Marz takes such an infair bump for that story. It was not perfect. But, the general story was not his. (Still, I wish it had stuck.)

He did the job he was hired to do, it just didn't entirely click with the fans.

It was not just a question of "clicking" with fans. Readers were leaving. Some of this may be systemic to the franchise, but Furman did not turn things around.

And, regardless of his intent with G1, his work on "Beast Wars" was bad enough to justify a trip behind the woodshed from IDW.


Dom
-but, he did write "Maximum Dinobots", which was good despite its name.