TF Views

Onslaught Six wrote:Metal Gear is also not an RTS.

The problem with doing Joe as an FPS is right there in the name--first person. If I play as Duke, the last thing I'm going to see for the entire game is Duke. There's a reason the TF games--which, WFC and FOC were hella successful--were third person shooters instead of first person.

The only way an FPS would work is if the player were exclusively playing as a new recruit character--Steel Brigade would fit nicely!--and are constantly surrounded by AI characters of the main dudes. There needs to be a LOT of character in this for it to work; we're talking (ironically enough) Metal Gear levels of characters talking to you, just doing it in a much less intrusive way.

I've said for years though that Metal Gear is the closest to a GI Joe game you'll ever get--soldiery dude fighting goofy para-supernatural terrorists with wack ass code names.

Star Trek: Voyager Elite Force did that to great effect. You didn't actually play as one of the main characters but you often interacted with them and it was awesome. Something similar could easily work for GI Joe.

I don't think you've ever actually played a Metal Gear game. "RPG" is the very single last thing I would classify them as.

The original "Metal Gear" and "Snake's Revenge" were more or less role playing games, similar to "Legend of Zelda".

A real time shooter would also work.

The problem with doing Joe as an FPS is right there in the name--first person. If I play as Duke, the last thing I'm going to see for the entire game is Duke. There's a reason the TF games--which, WFC and FOC were hella successful--were third person shooters instead of first person.

Plus, contemporary, non-fantasy RPGs do not sell well. The last game that came out that could fit that definition, Alpha Protocol by my good friends at Obsidian, was absolutely slammed and tanked hard.

We should probably move this to a proper video game thread. But, why do you think this is? Why does an RPG need to be an "the past" to work? (I would love to see an urban RPG type game. Wharehouses and such would work as dungeons. Sewers would be an underworld. I dunno.

The problem with doing Joe as an FPS is right there in the name--first person. If I play as Duke, the last thing I'm going to see for the entire game is Duke. There's a reason the TF games--which, WFC and FOC were hella successful--were third person shooters instead of first person.

How much of a video game is about character, and how much is about being playable? When I played the old Joe games on NES, I selected characters for easy of use. (For example, I did not use Snake Eyes in "the Atlantis Factor" because Storm Shadow made more sense.)

They just released an arctic BAT in last year's 50th line; I think using the same mould twice in a row is probably not a great idea. (Then again, we have Blowtorch again in this year's line...but at least some people were asking for it.)

Every BAT for the last 8 years has been a recolour of the mkI. The uniforms change, but it is the same BAT. Where are the mkII, III and IV?

Shockwave wrote:I liked the new Robocop!

I hear ya, I like some things that suck too.

Dominic wrote:Is "GI Joe" really a tin mine though? Or, is it just poorly managed? (Neither of those possibilities rules out the other.)

That's what makes it a tin mine right now. TF used to be shit.

But, if SW can chug along, why not Joe? What is the problem keeping it from taking root in the market?

Joe has a simplistic story that doesn't have long-term resonance, it's just colorful good guys vs colorful bad guys, it's fun but it isn't really anything amazing in terms of its deeper story and roots. It is a happy reflection on the state of the military in pop culture, and right now there isn't as much pop culture interest in military, so Joe follows suit - same thing happened in the '70s. The lite-sci-fi angle of ARAH wears off quickly without the cool vehicles and gadgets of the toy line, it's just people in costumes without them.

Almighty Unicron wrote:I have to admit that, aside from being born in the 90s (which is a big thing), that's one of the reasons why GI Joe didn't appeal to me; why buy some dude with a missile when I can get a robot that turns into a plane. Or Spiderman. Or a power ranger?

And consider now that more and more of childrens' entertainment budgets are going to video games rather than toys, why would a kid want GI Joe when he can BE GI Joe in Call of Duty?

That's a good point too, military fantasies are played out every day online via these video games, and other fantasies are better expressed in other stories.

Shockwave wrote:

Almighty Unicron wrote:I have to admit that, aside from being born in the 90s (which is a big thing), that's one of the reasons why GI Joe didn't appeal to me; why buy some dude with a missile when I can get a robot that turns into a plane. Or Spiderman. Or a power ranger?

And consider now that more and more of childrens' entertainment budgets are going to video games rather than toys, why would a kid want GI Joe when he can BE GI Joe in Call of Duty?

Exactly. In fact, I've often wondered why Hasbro hasn't just had someone release GI Joe DLC skin pack for CoD. So that instead of fighting Nazis or Terrorists, they're fighting Cobra. And HISS tanks instead of Panzers or whatever. Call of Duty: GI Joe, that would be pretty cool.

But, by that Token, I don't know why Mattel doesn't have Blizzard reskin WoW into a Masters of the Universe MMO.

There's a fine line these companies must tread, they want to have an appealing property for kids still, and COD is too violent for that sort of thing. War for Cybertron was a great game but didn't last because it wasn't as good mastering the intensity of those sorts of games you discuss.

Maybe he means RTS? A Command & Conquer style GI Joe game would kick all kinds of ass.

Xcom done as GI Joe would be dope.

Dominic wrote:We should probably move this to a proper video game thread. But, why do you think this is? Why does an RPG need to be an "the past" to work? (I would love to see an urban RPG type game. Wharehouses and such would work as dungeons. Sewers would be an underworld. I dunno.

I was at a game convention talking to a few developers the other day and we could literally name four RPGs that take place in the "modern" day, all of which were made some time ago. There's Earthbound on the SNES (in the 80s), Parasite Eve on the Playstation (90s), Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines (2003, PC) and the Shin Megami Tensei: Persona Series (ranging from the end of the Playstation's lifetime to the end of the PS2's lifetime, with the fifth installment finally announced for the end of the PS3's lifetime), the last installment of which came out in 2005 (a decade ago!). Aside from VTM, all of those RPGs were made by Japanese development houses. Aside from that, there are a smattering of games that take place in a near-future, mostly urban setting: the cyberpunk Deus Ex series is the best example that comes to mind right now, and they just recently announced a fourth game.


In general though, RPGs are defined by your character growing in power over the game with you as a player choosing how that growth happens, which necessitates a lot of different choices for those powers. Because of that, it's far easier to place your character in either the distant past or distant future so that their powers can develop along unrealistic means (wanna be a paladin? A wizard? A cyborg? A space marine?). With a more realistic setting, you run the risk of either having a character with less potential power growth, or the powers that the character has would suspend the disbelief with the inherently more "realistic" setting due to it being only within a few years of the game's release.

I've actually been working on some design docs for a kind of RPG that I've always thought had potential but was rarely looked at: a superhero RPG. Most superhero games are action games, but there's a wealth of table-top superhero games (Mutants and Masterminds, Champions, Aberrant, and the licensed Marvel and DC games) that shows the genre could work. Of course, I don't work at a video game developer anymore so the point is moot.

I can see how a realistic setting might be a hinderance. But, at the same time, I have had a weird urge to read a source/rule-book for a mob themed RPG.

The lite-sci-fi angle of ARAH wears off quickly without the cool vehicles and gadgets of the toy line, it's just people in costumes without them.

The toyline definitely needs vehicles The comics were solid for years. It was, as I have said before, "Greek Tragedy with Ninjas". DDP played it more as "military superheroes".


On a related note:

I read issue 213 of the current comic, the much hyped "Death of Snake Eyes".
Never thought that I would agree with the retro fans....but it sucked. If Hama was still writing to spec, and was given an order to kill Snake Eyes, it would be understandable. But, Hama chooses the tone and direction of this book.

Quick and dumb summary:

Spoiler

Snake Eyes dies fighting Serpentor. Not sure why the Joes needed to raise Serpentor to use their McGuffin weapon. But, they did. During the fight, Serpentor rips of Snake Eyes' mask and throws it aside.

As Snake Eyes and Serpentor are blown up real good by a grenade, Sean Collins comes crashing in, while riding in a giant robots head form half-way around the world. Collins in badly burned by the re-entry head. He steps out of the robot and picks up SE's mask, which is conveniently there.

The fans are irate. And, for once, I am agreeing with them.

JT wrote:The lite-sci-fi angle of ARAH wears off quickly without the cool vehicles and gadgets of the toy line, it's just people in costumes without them.

I have more or less completed the '82 vehicle lineup in the last month or so (minus the bike and tank; they're on their way) and I gotta say, there's a lot of neat playability in the idea of the figures interacting with larger vehicles and stuff like that, and it's a lot harder to get that onto shelves these days, even with a powerhouse line like, say, TMNT. There's something primal and playful about it, and makes me glad I invested in a bunch of them. (My vehicles have literally tripled in count over the last month, maybe more, including a handful of sweet international vehicles in cool colours. The Action Force's bright green and black motif is a huge bunch cooler than the typical green of many of the early Joe toys.)

AU wrote:and the Shin Megami Tensei: Persona Series (ranging from the end of the Playstation's lifetime to the end of the PS2's lifetime, with the fifth installment finally announced for the end of the PS3's lifetime), the last installment of which came out in 2005 (a decade ago!).

Come on, don't bullshit the man, didn't they just release a new Persona game? Or do they just rerelease the same handful again and again on new consoles with different shit? (Prowl, back me up here.)

Also, I gotta call you out on Earthbound, it was released in, what, 94, 95 Stateside, a little earlier in Japan? You'd be right on if you were talking about Mother 1 (maybe you can make an argument if it were released in '89, but nobody cares about Mother 1 anyway), and then there was Mother 3 on the GBA.

And shit, there were how many of you and not a single one mentioned fucking Pokemon?!


Regarding the recent comic, Hama was only ever "above competent" in the original run to begin with. I'm reading the original run right now on my tablet actually, some of it for the first time, and a lot of it is just one rung above the cartoon plots. People remember these books as being more important, groundbreaking and interesting than they actually are. It's more grounded than the cartoon was, sure, but that's not saying much.

When you read several issues in a row, you start to have questions about where every member of Cobra's loyalty lies--but not in the cool, political intrigue way that everyone thinks would be cool. You actually just realize that everyone is one step away from backstabbing each other in every issue, and instead of interesting it's just stupid, because how could any of these guys work together enough when they have proven time and again that they're all more than willing to fuck each other over? I'm around issue 25 or 26 right now and, within 3 or 4 issues of their debut appearances, Cobra Commander has already pissed off Firefly, Wild Weasel, Storm Shadow, Zartan and all three of the Dreadnoks. (This is in addition to Destro, Major Bludd and Baroness already wanting to kill him. Mindbender hasn't shown up yet, I think he's an 85 character.)

The fact that Sean Collins has a new code name ("Throwdown?" What a terrible piece of shit) and isn't Kamakura is a fucking travesty. I don't care if Hama didn't come up with that name, it's more than established at this point and should have been kept. At least we get some random Red Shadows action, that's a plus!

The art in the book is also barely passable. I read the preview pages and decided on the art alone that I was better off reading someone else's summary instead of buying it and trying to make out what's happening on the page for myself. The art isn't even up to par with the 80s series that this is trying to continue, let alone looking like it's got 30 years worth of comic technology behind it. What a waste.

I am pretty sure both the Joe and Cobra robots are based off TFs. The top robot on this page looks like one of those non-Movie video game drone characters from the first Movie toyline--they all had that "lenses for faces" thing going on. The black robot looks like he's based off, of all things, Generations Drift.

Regarding the recent comic, Hama was only ever "above competent" in the original run to begin with. I'm reading the original run right now on my tablet actually, some of it for the first time, and a lot of it is just one rung above the cartoon plots. People remember these books as being more important, groundbreaking and interesting than they actually are. It's more grounded than the cartoon was, sure, but that's not saying much.

There was a learning curve. During the first two years, Hama was still settling in. He generally hit stride around the 4 or 5 year mark, which would have carried him through to the 8 or 9 year mark (circa issue 100).

Some of the this is also a question of when the comics came out. Hama's early run was a cut above standard for the 80s. (Note his sparing use of thought balloons and narration boxes. It is easy to take that for granted now, after the industry has spent years pushing away from that kind of bullshit. But, in the 80s, that kind of crap was perfectly acceptable.)

I'm around issue 25 or 26 right now and, within 3 or 4 issues of their debut appearances, Cobra Commander has already pissed off Firefly, Wild Weasel, Storm Shadow, Zartan and all three of the Dreadnoks. (This is in addition to Destro, Major Bludd and Baroness already wanting to kill him. Mindbender hasn't shown up yet, I think he's an 85 character.)

Cobra was not supposed to be well functioning. That was the point.

Look at Hama's Cobra as the American Dream gone horribly wrong. Cobra Commander is a Horatio Alger monster (self-made man, a leader, seizing the day....). Now, filter that through the 80s. (Obviously, you were not there. But, you seem to have a good understanding of the decade.)

You are partly right about Mindbender. He was an '96 character, showing up around issue 4o or so.

Key issues:

-19: First attack on the Pit.
-21: The infamous silent issue. Over-rated. But, it is the first appearance of the tattoo.

-27 and 28: Origin of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow. Implication of Firefly's involvement (dialogue between Zartan and Firefly).

-44 to 52: Discovery of true killer's identity. Death of Soft Master (including further implications about Firefly). Redemptions of Storm Shadow.
-53 to 58: Redemption, origin and death of Cobra Commander.

-60 to 66: Introduction of Blind Master. Stalker, Quick Kick and Snow Job in slavic prison camp.

-84: Zartan origin. Red Ninja explication. (I think this is also the issue where Billy begins training with Jinx.)

-94-96: "Snake Eyes Trilogy". Contrived, but notable tor including Baroness' origin and expanding on the revenge theme.

-98-100: Return of Cobra Commander. The series had begun to decline at this point.

-126: Firefly origin. Last big reveal of the series.

-55: Last issue.

The fact that Sean Collins has a new code name ("Throwdown?" What a terrible piece of shit) and isn't Kamakura is a fucking travesty. I don't care if Hama didn't come up with that name, it's more than established at this point and should have been kept. At least we get some random Red Shadows action, that's a plus!

Hama only wrote Kamakura once, in "Valor v/s Venom". Not sure Hama ever assumed that Kamakura and Collins were the same guy. I tend to think that "Throwdown" is an intentionally vague and disposable name. What kills me is that Snake Eyes dying and being replaced is the sort of thing that I like in theory. But, Hama's execution has been laughable.

I am giving this book a few more issue. But, if it does not impress me by the end of Marvel's "Secret Wars", I am done with Hama (and possibly Joe) for good.

I tend to think the art problems are a result of IDW trying to use retro pencils and colours with modern printing.

I am pretty sure both the Joe and Cobra robots are based off TFs. The top robot on this page looks like one of those non-Movie video game drone characters from the first Movie toyline--they all had that "lenses for faces" thing going on. The black robot looks like he's based off, of all things, Generations Drift.

The robots plot is just....pointless. I wish I could say that it looked like Hama had a reason or plan for using the robots. But, so far, it just seems like a random threat.

Onslaught Six wrote:I have more or less completed the '82 vehicle lineup in the last month or so (minus the bike and tank; they're on their way) and I gotta say, there's a lot of neat playability in the idea of the figures interacting with larger vehicles and stuff like that, and it's a lot harder to get that onto shelves these days, even with a powerhouse line like, say, TMNT. There's something primal and playful about it, and makes me glad I invested in a bunch of them. (My vehicles have literally tripled in count over the last month, maybe more, including a handful of sweet international vehicles in cool colours. The Action Force's bright green and black motif is a huge bunch cooler than the typical green of many of the early Joe toys.)

By '84, Hasbro realized that realistic vehicles were not going to take them far enough, and that vehicles were a great loss-leader to getting kids to buy the figures. I think toy companies have forgotten those lessons these days, TMNT is the closest because Playmates is a somewhat backward-looking company, but generally Hasbro tries to make every individual mold turn a profit which lowers the quality available to a new-mold vehicle. But in the '82 and '83 lines, Hasbro was still conservative with colors, and for foreign market they'd put no effort at all in. After '84 you got more bold colors in the US releases that were thoughtful, while the crazy colors were reserved first for foreign market and then for early '90s toys.

I am pretty sure both the Joe and Cobra robots are based off TFs. The top robot on this page looks like one of those non-Movie video game drone characters from the first Movie toyline--they all had that "lenses for faces" thing going on. The black robot looks like he's based off, of all things, Generations Drift.

The lenses for faces thing isn't Transformers, Transformers borrowed that from other Japanese lines with mechs, so it's circular. Robots in Joe goes back to the SNAKE, Hasbro kept trying to shoehorn mechs into Joe every few years that weren't terribly TF-like and I think that resonated.

I can see what O6 is saying about one of the robots looking like Drift.


As for vehicles, Hasbro needs to stop making drivers and pilots if they are not going to make more vehicles.