Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

The originals... ok, not exactly, but the original named "The TransFormers" anyway. Take THAT, Diaclone!
Generation 1, Generation 2 - Removable fists? Check. Unlicensed vehicle modes? Check. Kickass tape deck robot with transforming cassette minions? DOUBLE CHECK!!!
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:Procreation would just be a "new" application of captured tech. Of course, it would lead to more expensive babies.
How would they be "expensive"? The Borg just put kids into maturation chambers to accelerate their growth until they're ready for service.
I really would not be against a genocide in the case of an enemy like the Borg. In fact, resources allowing, I would *demand* it.
I guess Dom went to the Ender school of military strategy... There is no justification for genocide, especially since there is the possibility they could free those individuals from the Collective.
Okay, sure. But, what would the real cost of wiping them out be?
You mean like the trillions of innocent lives from countless civilizations the Borg had already assimilated? Information of dozens of worlds the Federation has never seen? Or how about the technological advancements they could get from Borg technology?
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Shockwave »

I think the optimal approach would be technocide. Kill the technology that's enslaving everyone and there ya go. The problem with the scenario presented to the Enterprise crew is that apparently that's exactly what they were attempting, but they didn't know it. They thought they would be commiting genocide and wiping them out. The other problem with discussing the Borg is the fact that they haven't been consistently portrayed. The worst thing they did was give them a queen. They really should have stuck with the original concept for them which was that there was no leader, no "head of the snake" to cut off, it was just the collective consciousness, a perfect technocracy where the people serve the technology and are beholden to it and that was it. Under that concept and with the technology available to the Enterprise, what other choice would they have besides attempted genocide? Even Starfleet gave Picard a direct order to attempt it again if the chance arose. Guinan said it in "Q who?" that there's no dealing with them, no negotiating, no diplomacy. Their single goal is to consume everything in the universe and nothing will sway them to stop. So what alternative do you have in that scenario?

Then First Contact came along and they suddenly had a queen. Because every pop culture media that gets turned into a movie needs to pander to the idiot masses that can't wrap their stupid minds around an enemy with no leader. Thank you Rick "I like to fuck up Star Trek" Berman. So now they have a queen. Great. Dealing with them now is no different than dealing with any other Trek race. They're cybernetic Romulan zombies. Sometimes literally. /rant.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Sparky Prime »

Shockwave wrote:Under that concept and with the technology available to the Enterprise, what other choice would they have besides attempted genocide?
As I said before, free the drones from the Collective. Take Hugh's example. The Borg that rescued him couldn't even operate their ship anymore once they learned of individuality. Imagine if they'd gotten the proper guidance in learning to function as individuals instead of Lore. Voyager also showed several species had developed methods of fighting the Borg by using weapons that attack their connection to the Collective (and then blow up the ship, but still), plus a 'resistance' of sorts within the Borg Collective known as "Unimatrix Zero". Really, individuality itself seems to be an extremely effective weapon against the Borg and (depending on how it's implemented) doesn't require sacrificing innocent lives at all.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Shockwave »

True and we as the audience know that now, but the Enterprise crew didn't know that. It's not like they said "Hey, let's defeat the Borg by giving this one individuality". So you're argument doesn't work. You're basically saying they should have made a decision based on information they received after the fact and it doesn't work that way. And just to clarify, I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, because yes, the preferred option would be to free the collective. But as of that episode the only thing they knew about the Borg was that they were an agressive species that can't be reasoned with, can't be negotiated with, and who's only goal is annhilation and enslavement. Now with that knowledge, and ONLY that knowledge, what's the alternative?
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Dominic »

Trekkie nailed it. Based on that episode, and what had come before it, (and by extension, the information Picard and co had to work with), there was no morally sound reason not to wipe out the Borg in a single bloodless move.
You mean like the trillions of innocent lives from countless civilizations the Borg had already assimilated? Information of dozens of worlds the Federation has never seen? Or how about the technological advancements they could get from Borg technology?
This is a better argument than any ridiculous bromide about genocide just being wrong. But, as Trekkie pointed out, saving the lives would not have been an assumed benefit at the time. And, there would likely be plenty of information/technology to plunder from dead Borg. The Federation could have wiped out the Borg and still come out ahead technologically. (They would even had had an advantage over the Romulans and Klingons, who would not have known to go tech-hunting as quickly as the Federation would have.)


From a writing angle, there were also possibilities. The Federation's plan could have killed 90% of the Borg, leaving a small group of hyper-adaptive (and individualized survivors. Mix the Borg with a desire for revenge or avarice, and a capacity for creativity.

Instead, we got typically fuzzy Trek ethics where the moral high-ground is presented as being the most absurd of the available choices.



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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Sparky Prime »

Shockwave wrote:True and we as the audience know that now, but the Enterprise crew didn't know that.
I disagree. Taking just what the Enterprise crew knew at the time, they did at least know the Borg function as a Collective and they had some experience hacking into that when they had Picard/Locutus which in itself had an interesting effect on the Borg. It wouldn't take much with just that information to figure that out as a point of weakness, and ways they could exploit it.
Dominic wrote:This is a better argument than any ridiculous bromide about genocide just being wrong.
I'm sorry, but what? It isn't ridiculous to see pointless killing/deaths as just wrong. As I said before, there is a reason why genocide is an international crime.
And, there would likely be plenty of information/technology to plunder from dead Borg.
Borg technology has a habit of self destructing after a drone dies. They wouldn't likely get much, if any, useful information out of what ever might remain in your scenario.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Dominic »

Wiping out a group for the hell of it is wrong. Wiping out a group that is generally well behaved is out of order.

Wiping out a group that has a track record of...well, genocide and rapine is a public service.


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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:Wiping out a group that has a track record of...well, genocide and rapine is a public service.
Answering genocide with genocide isn't a public service. No matter how you try to justify it, it's still a crime. Besides, the Borg don't don't wipe out species, assimilation is more like an extreme enslavement.

Erm... So Rodimus blowing up Paradron was really messed up.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Shockwave »

I'm sorry, but I have to seriously disagree in the case of the Borg. They're locusts. Intergalactic locusts. They swarm a planet, consume everthing and leave no trace of the society or civilization that was there. And that's their only single goal for everyone and everything in the universe. The only thing they do is torturously enslave sentient beings and their only goal is to perpetuate that as much as possible. So my question now would be how many races/species would have to fall before wiping them out is considered a public service? Sure, it's easy to say "just liberate them", but that's not really a viable option MOST of the time. Case in point: First Contact (I know, it's an example post queen, but it illustrates my point just the same). There is a scene near the end where Lily is actually mad at Picard for not trying to save one of his crewmen. Are you fucking kidding me? So, let me get this straight: Picard was supposed to sit there and try to perform hours/possibly days worth of complex surgeries that he doesn't know how to do and which even to Dr. Crusher are experimental at best in the middle of a hallway where the rest of the Borg are chasing them with no medical tools while running for his life? Riiiight. I'm sure that would have gone real well. I can't help but wonder what the Borg would do once they've assimilated everything.

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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Shockwave »

So to sum up (in other words, it's midnight and I'm tired and forgot I was going to type this in the last post): Answering genocide with genocide absolutely is a publice service if it prevents more genocide. Which is like committing muder to prevent there being any more murders. Speaking of which

Shockwave
-Is nearly done with season 4 of "Dexter". Also, I don't think anyone cares about Paradron anymore and Rodimus always was kind of a dick anyway.
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