TF Views

I don't think we should count trasformers with inter-changeable meelee hands/weapons (optimus,megatron,sideswipe,hot rod,etc.) as Handicapped,because they have the ability to choose two regular hands.

Tigermegatron wrote:I don't think we should count trasformers with inter-changeable meelee hands/weapons (optimus,megatron,sideswipe,hot rod,etc.) as Handicapped,because they have the ability to choose two regular hands.

I would agree, if anything that would be the opposite of a handicap. Like having superpowers or something. That said, I don't think anyone was suggesting that we do count these. Or did I miss something again?

Dominic wrote:TFs are shown to vary so much *more* than people

Wow ok

Dominic wrote:that the property can include a variety of character types/classes without going for lazy disability allegory and such.

Don't you think you're overestimating TF a little? I mean, it really hasn't come that far in terms of representation since the 80s. Sure, we'll drop Jazz's stereotypical persona, but we've gotta have SOME racial shorthand so why not bring in Animated Blitzwing. Ain't no Germans in America. Phew.

You concede that the TFs are made humanoid to be 'relatable' when it's clear that any who differ from the Optimus Prime mould- and I mean in all terms of design; visuals, voice and personality- are pretty much there to be played for yuks. I can't think, off the top of my head, of any right-thinking, non-jokey TF who isn't essentially an able-bodied white American, and thus designed to be relatable for that demographic (c'mon guys don't bother writing a list I know the characters too). It's clearly a business decision, and an unfortunte one in my opinion.

But TF's lore is, at its heart, a simplistic one. That of an 80s kids' franchise (in 2013). Now that's fine for some folks, and Dom and others have implied that anything else would be 'pandering,' but how is it pandering when it's *interesting* and *context appropriate*, as in the original example of Metroplex? I'm not sure how the idea of a massively oversized TF with mobility and fuel consumption issues has anything to do with 'LOL FOCUS GROUPS'.

I mean, that just seems like a kneejerk reaction. What's the alternative to 'pandering'?

Dom isn't talking about personalities. He's talking about physical differences. Humans are, generally, physically identical, besides minute differences in skintone, build and facial structure. TFs vary from being fuckton huge and bulky to tiny and slender, to dudes with four arms, to dudes with wheels for legs, to dudes with wings who can fly. People don't have differences like that.

I mean, it really hasn't come that far in terms of representation since the 80s. Sure, we'll drop Jazz's stereotypical persona, but we've gotta have SOME racial shorthand so why not bring in Animated Blitzwing. Ain't no Germans in America. Phew.

Blitzwing's *name* is inspired by German imagery. I get annoyed by the stupid accents as well. But, really, given that his name is *Blitzwing*, they may as well go the whole distance and portray him as a hun. (The official explanation for TF names has generally been "fits their alternate mode and personality", so again, they may as well go whole hog and give him the accent.)

You concede that the TFs are made humanoid to be 'relatable' when it's clear that any who differ from the Optimus Prime mould- and I mean in all terms of design; visuals, voice and personality- are pretty much there to be played for yuks.

I could list plenty of characters that contradict what you are saying here. But, as you said, you know the characters.

I can't think, off the top of my head, of any right-thinking, non-jokey TF who isn't essentially an able-bodied white American, and thus designed to be relatable for that demographic

What about all of those Japanese characters? (Hey, you know more about that side of things than I do. I am genuinely curious.)

On the other hand, I do not associate "able bodied and right thinking" as being exclusively "white" or American" traits. I know plenty of rational non-whites, and some bug-fuck lunatic white folks. Similarly, America hardly holds a monopoly on being sensible. (By the same token, the sensible mindset does not hold as much sway in the US as I might like. There really is no correlation.)

It's clearly a business decision, and an unfortunte one in my opinion.

Who is reading the comics? Who is buying the toys and other merchandise?

(Of course, this also implies that people from a given group will only buy what resembles their group. I personally do not do this, as my love of Indian food will attest. But, many people *will* do that.)

But TF's lore is, at its heart, a simplistic one. That of an 80s kids' franchise (in 2013). Now that's fine for some folks, and Dom and others have implied that anything else would be 'pandering,' but how is it pandering when it's *interesting* and *context appropriate*,

The property has gone beyond the 80s. (I honestly do not think anybody here would dispute that.)

But,there is a difference between having sophisticated writing and professional looking art (which should be the standard any comics are held to) and writing stories for the purpose of increasing representation.

Token characters are about as useless as offensive stereotype characters, because they ultimately serve the same purpose of being on page/screen for the purpose of "representing" a group (for good or ill) rather than because they are legitimately useful. Every so often, a writer might find a way to make a token or stereotype character useful. But, that often involves changing that character beyond recognition.

Marvel's Luke "Power Man" Cage is a good example of this. Cage was intended to be a token character that would cash in on the "Blacksploitation" trend in the 70s. Cage was, to be blunt, one of the most hilariously (if accidently) offensive characters of the 70s. Cage stopped being a joke when Bendis got ahold of him about 10 years ago. Bendis' Cage is a damned good character that is useful to the plot and "sounds" like a real person. I would argue that Bendis' Cage is practically an all new character having little to do with the character from the 70s. (Seriously, spend like 5 minutes with Google. And, if you can, try to read some Bendis "Avengers" with Luke Cage in them.)

Bendis' "All New Spider-Man" is about a little bi-racial (black and latino) kid. I am pretty sure that Bendis made the kid bi-racial for the sake of stirring up controversy and getting people to expect a focus-grouped joke in the making. (And, then, Bendis turned around and made Miles a useful and interesting character that could stand on his own regardless of his fictional race. And, he gave Miles of lovable and chubby sidekick of Chinese descent...who is written as a normal kid.) Unfortunately, we also know that Bendis' style on this sort of thing is rare. Bendis does not have Miles and the chubby kid (whose name I forget) discussing or confronting prejudice. Chubby kid has an actual name and is not shown to suffer taunts for being chubby. (I really wish I could remember his name, because he is a damned fun character.) Howerver, most writers would go for the cheap race/bullying card and we would be left with shittier comics.

I'm not sure how the idea of a massively oversized TF with mobility and fuel consumption issues has anything to do with 'LOL FOCUS GROUPS'.

It would come down to intent.

Metroplex was given certain weaknesses for the sake of balancing out what would otherwise be a seriously over-powered character. It was a reason for him to not be involved with, and likely winning, just about every battle. Trailbreaker had force-fields, but he could not use them too much or he would run out of power. Again, balance.

Similarly, the origional 3 Seekers were similarly balanced. Starscream was the smartest. But, his special weapon was essentially something to be pointed and shot. Thundercracker was presumably of average intelligence, but had a slightly better power set. Skywarp had a damned good power set, but was not really smart enough to use it on his own.

But, not of those characters were written in for the sake of having a hobbled character.


Dom
-seriously, Luke Cage was like 4 colour black face.

So it seems you're not actually against the idea, so long as it's not done solely to appease a specific group...?

Regarding representation in the Japanese series, it's arguably worse than the western stuff because Japanese kids' fiction has a long-standing stigma of just not even bothering to include any characters who differ from the traditional ethnic Japanese. There's a massive African diaspora in Japan which is only just now getting any sort of exposure in fiction. And even then it's frequently played for laughs. We can say what we will about stereotypes like Jazz and Inferno, but at least they admit that black Americans and Texans exist in the same world as the rest of us.

Japan, of course, has a different 'set of minorities', and like America its kids' fiction rarely deviates from stereotyping. I know Masterforce is mostly humans, but I watched it recently so it's still fresh in my mind, Cab is a completely atypical South Seas kid who can talk to animals, and Cancer, being Chinese, OBVIOUSLY knows kung fu. If Japan can't even paint interesting portraits of the Chinese I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for characters who aren't Normally Abled.

...And the Tripredacus Bros really don't count, before anyone brings them up. That's so old-fashioned racist it hardly even counts as racism. It's pure pulse-pounding unabashed ignorance of a culture that's little more than a joke to the people creating the characters.

So it seems you're not actually against the idea, so long as it's not done solely to appease a specific group...?

Exactly.

This goes double when the group to be "included" does not make sense in context. For example, Heimdall (sp?) being black in the recent "Thor" movie was just mind blowing. (Seriously, a black Norse mythological character? Uh....) Of course, that paled in comparison to Thor (a character with roots in Norse mythology) getting squeemish about genocide. But, that is another topic entirely.

Foisting disabled characters in to a setting is troublesome because it is hard to justify their presence. (I do not want to see a diabetic superhero or "GI Joe" character because that would be fucking retarded. Actually, I would like to see that character, only if the writer promised to kill them off in the most blatantly back-handed way possible.) In the case of a property like TF, the obvious question is how the disabled character could/would survive for very long under the conditions represented in the setting. That is why I do not want to see "differently abled " TFs as a disability allegory. It could work as an economics allegory (trading one set of components or abilities for another). But, that is (in theory) going to lead to better writing than "inclusion for the sake of inclusion.

Japan, of course, has a different 'set of minorities', and like America its kids' fiction rarely deviates from stereotyping. I know Masterforce is mostly humans, but I watched it recently so it's still fresh in my mind, Cab is a completely atypical South Seas kid who can talk to animals, and Cancer, being Chinese, OBVIOUSLY knows kung fu. If Japan can't even paint interesting portraits of the Chinese I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for characters who aren't Normally Abled.

I was also conflating "purple and green hair" with being "different" in Japan. Plus, I have vague recollections of ostentatiously international casts of characters. I may have been confusing things on this point though.



Dom
-the only good token character is a dead token character.

Rattrap lost his legs!

Mako Crab wrote:Rattrap lost his legs!

Only in the BM cartoon.

Some BM toys,Had alternate robot modes,That had regular robot legs & tucked away/hidden legs.

Gomess wrote:Don't you think you're overestimating TF a little? I mean, it really hasn't come that far in terms of representation since the 80s. Sure, we'll drop Jazz's stereotypical persona, but we've gotta have SOME racial shorthand so why not bring in Animated Blitzwing. Ain't no Germans in America. Phew.

Good thing Cybertron isn't memorable, or we'd have to include like 30 different nationalities' accents in that point.

You concede that the TFs are made humanoid to be 'relatable' when it's clear that any who differ from the Optimus Prime mould- and I mean in all terms of design; visuals, voice and personality- are pretty much there to be played for yuks. I can't think, off the top of my head, of any right-thinking, non-jokey TF who isn't essentially an able-bodied white American, and thus designed to be relatable for that demographic (c'mon guys don't bother writing a list I know the characters too). It's clearly a business decision, and an unfortunte one in my opinion.

Not seeing the "white" part at all, and in fact a lot of the TransFans I knew as a kid and meet in person now are different ethnicities: Mexican, black, and Asian are pretty much the most common probably more than white these days. It's easy to identify with a blue robot when he's speaking a language you can understand, it doesn't mean he's meant to be a "white American". The original show went around the world even before it left the planet. But "able bodied" is kinda important to being a soldier. Nobody in the US market wants to watch a show where robots crash land in the Baltics and speak with Lithuanian accents.

But TF's lore is, at its heart, a simplistic one. That of an 80s kids' franchise (in 2013). Now that's fine for some folks, and Dom and others have implied that anything else would be 'pandering,' but how is it pandering when it's *interesting* and *context appropriate*, as in the original example of Metroplex? I'm not sure how the idea of a massively oversized TF with mobility and fuel consumption issues has anything to do with 'LOL FOCUS GROUPS'.

I mean, that just seems like a kneejerk reaction. What's the alternative to 'pandering'?

Being authentic to the story and its characters, using those characters only when it's organic to the story, not simply putting in "the fat guy" or "the sensitive guy" or "the handicapped guy" or "the girl guy" because you want to appeal to a broader audience. Tell a good story and the audience will find the appeal, they will draw their own conclusions.


The inclusion of handicapped Transformers has to be logical and organic to the story to be included, yet the logic of a permanently-disabled Transformer requires a lot of convoluted explanation which automatically removes the "organic to the story" part.