TF Views

Doesn't seem so bad. Compared to Botcon prices, for instance, it is dirt cheap.

My problem is that neither the retail nor the Comic-con version actually looks like the Bruticus we know and love from the G1 cartoon. It looks just similar enough to not stand on its own as its own thing, and not nearly close enough to be a viable version of the characters.

If Amazon does have a G2 color scheme version, I might go for that one. (I'd heard that was a Japanese exclusive, and that the Amazon one was just the retail release in one box... which would still be easier than actually finding all the figures)

Forwarning: This was written at 3am so I might be slightly more hostile than usual! Please disregard anything that seems like a personal attack because it's probably not intended to be.

Dominic wrote:I thought "Onslaught 6" was your fan character, named after the 5 guys who got jobbed before him.

He was.

Onslaught, G2 Onslaught, Battle Gaea, Dolrailer, and Mega-Octane.

I didn't know, at the time, that some of those guys were the same character. (Later on, we fanfic'd them into different guys. G2 Onslaught was Onslaught II, and he had nuclear-reactive Energon Armour like the rest of the G1.5/G2 guys.)

BlastOff and Vortex are really bad though.

Honestly? They look just as bad on the SDCC version. In my opinion, there's no version of the toy yet (Besides maybe that G2 version?) where those guys come out on top. We either get bright red and purple, or two shades of muddy cruddy Shitturd Gold. Neither of them do the toys in the colours that Vortex and Blastoff are known for--grey and brown. I personally don't give a fuck if either colour scheme is screen accurate; neither of them look good and neither of them look like Vortex and Blastoff.

I mean, I didn't buy ROTF Soundwave's original release, because the thing was grey. I don't really give a shit that Soundwave was grey (or silver) in ROTF itself. Soundwave is fucking blue! So when they released a blue repaint, I bought it.

-still wondering how the retail wave is going to sell...

I was going to just order a fucking case, but that was before my current situation...and before it was $100 for a case. BBTS, you crazy.

JT wrote:The figures don't run $10 when they're pack-ins either, and you're not factoring in that the $20 version comes with a pack-in figure which is not here, so half your cash just went back out the window. And the price has gone up another $5.

The pack-in argument went out the window when the Retaliation pack-in figures had 1977 Star Wars articulation.

Prime seems to be taking a break, it's been a month since the last new episode, and that didn't feel at all like a season finale, it's only the 15th episode of the season where last season had 26. I don't see ads for TFP on any other network anymore though where I used to.

Midseason break. It's all the rage.

When you get Onslaught, will you notice that the faux tires on his back aren't painted at all, only sculpted and cast in the same blue plastic as the area around it?

I still say that figure wasn't finished at all, and those wheels will be painted on the finished toy. In fact, they won't even be painted, they'll be moulded, because they're not faux tires.

In fact, I really fucking hope they aren't because this whole fake-vehicle-parts thing is really starting to piss me off. I buy transformers because they're robots who turn into vehicles and vehicles that turn into robots; not vehicles that turn into robots that have sculpted parts that look like other parts of the vehicle.

If they have wheels, then where the wheels go during the transformation, THAT'S where the damn wheels should be in robot mode. Period. End of discussion. Fuck the game models. Fuck the cartoon. Fuck the movies. I don't buy those. I buy the toys. That's the thing that's real, to me. That's the tangible thing that I can hold and touch. Everything else should conform to that. That's my expectation.

I preferred G1 where, if the cartoon model didn't match the toy, everybody just ignored it. And, truly, this is the reason I continue buying the Generations/Classics/whateverthefuck toyline. Those are, in 90% of cases, original designs that need no help from any outside source. Hasbro came up with that. I don't care that Classics Kup isn't in his All Hail Megatron design; I care that those wheels on his shoulders are actually his wheels.

But hey, it's nearly 3am so this probably isn't the place to be having that argument anyway!

(Also, look closely at the pics of Just Onslaught, and it's painfully clear they're the same wheels. They have posts on them.)

You say we're spoiled because we want a product that looks the way it did when it was originally solicited, and it was originally solicited that way because of its context

How 'bout you go back to that Game Informer piece and make sure they absolutely SAY that the versions displayed in that article are the retail versions? Only use the original article--don't go off something TFW or Seibertron wrote, because obviously they're going to jump to conclusions and say "This is Generations Bruticus, as-is, on store shelves," because obviously they couldn't have known about SDCC.

You think WE'RE spoiled? Look at high-end camera enthusiasts, they complain about EVERYTHING with pure vitriol and Nikon, Canon, Leica, Hasselblad, Pentax, Panasonic, Olympus, those companies have to sort through the loud noise to make products marketed to those people in the hundreds and thousands of dollars. Last year's model 2 grams lighter? It's time to grab torches and pitchforks, but without those people making all that noise, those companies wouldn't have a marketing base.

And there you miss Prowl's point entirely. It's BECAUSE they spend those hundreds/thousands of dollars on these things that they're allowed to bitch about things like a 2 gram difference in weight, or whatever. Us, on the other hand? We pay $10 at Wal-Mart. Maybe $12 now--and we bitch about that extra $2 constantly. $10 is not really that big of an investment.

We're not talking about "Hasbro winning", we're talking about products like Bruticus selling or not, if Bruticus doesn't sell on shelves then it damages chances of another product like that coming out in the future.

Oh fucking well! I've lived the past 23 years without a Devastator, I think somehow I'll trudge on. Unlike some of these guys on TFW and shit, I don't hedge my existence on what Hasbro's doing.

Prowl again wrote:Hell, two of my biggest problems with RTS Jazz, his door-wings and his white-painted forearms, are purely subjective, I've seen people mention that they do like those things.

Hasbro even fixed the painted forearms in a later release, moulding them in white, which says to me that there was a mistake somewhere and he was always intended to have white-moulded forearms. And the doors thing? Well, that really is purely subjective and applies entirely to how much you prefer Cartoon Jazz over Toy Jazz. (Myself, I'm a Toy Jazz guy, so I like the doors.)

'My' problems with Jazz are his weird angled feet (when so many other toys in the line have awesome ankle rocker swivels, like Scourge and Kup) and his weird double-jointed-for-no-reason knees which only serve to make his legs look awkward in every possible pose. (I think those are a transformation problem though.)

Maybe his vehicle mode will be cool too? Toy's not even out yet, let's wait and see.

Spoilers, it really ain't. He looks like a fucking fourwheeler with guns strapped on top. Which would be sort of cool if it weren't Onslaught doing that. Missile Truck, damn it!

I was annoyed when Taco Bell got rid of the Grilled Stuft Burrito to replace it with the 'XXL' Grilled Stuft Burrito, a product that I personally feel is inferior and doesn't appeal to me, but Taco Bell still offers the Crunchwrap, and the Enchirito, and the Beefy 5-Layer Burrito, and other stuff I like, so I still go to Taco Bell, and just order that other stuff I like.

I'm annoyed that Taco Bell doesn't seem to internally regulate their prices, and what is a reasonable $1.49 burrito in one joint is a $2.99 burrito in a different joint. (Also, they seem to have gotten rid of the Cheesy Double Beef Burrito, which makes me really sad since it's the best thing they ever served.)

Wait, what the hell? You think retail Bruticus's colors are too bright, and here you are contemplating getting a G2 colored version? Make up your mind, man!

Dom will buy anything if there's precedent. G2 Bruticus alone is precedent, but since the in-game preorder bonus is G2 Bruticus...well, there you go.

Gustavo! wrote:If Amazon does have a G2 color scheme version, I might go for that one. (I'd heard that was a Japanese exclusive, and that the Amazon one was just the retail release in one box... which would still be easier than actually finding all the figures)

Gustavo has a point; we haven't actually had any confirmation (official or otherwise) that Amazon's would be G2-coloured. Amazon's solicited a Bruticus giftset, and they 'are' doing the G2 Bruty skin in-game, and we have seen pics from a Japanese magazine of a G2 FoC Bruticus toy...but no actual confirmation that all these things are related.

Listen Cap'n, we're not including sales tax because Hasbro is charging sales tax Comic-Con as well, so it works out the same, $110 with tax vs $71 with tax, that's WORSE: $39 difference.

I am staying with my "$15 for a deluxe" arguement, because it is "close enough".

On a related note, does that put the SDCC set at higher than the BBTS set?

Why? Because they're kind of stumbly at market research, especially when they have changed a team leader or key team member within the last 2 years. They actively seek out what we want (often by reading forums and such) to help guide them when they aren't sure where to go or when they fear losing a core segment. It's almost symbiotic in a way.

And, they still manage to pull stupid shit like this. The market is Darwinistic by nature. Hasbro needs to smarten the fuck up.

I dunno, which is worse, intentional evil or bumbling into evil?

This relates to a conversation that I had with Scourge recently.

Thundergate in 2007 was caused by Hasbro being stupid in not releasing their own Thundercracker, and then giving Fun PUblications license to release a Thundercracker. Thundercracker was damned near impossible to get unless you were at BC07 on Friday night.

Now, we have Combatgate. Hasbro is deliberately making the correctly coloured figures exclusive. Of course, SDCC exclusives are generally easier to get than BotCon exclusives.

In the first case, Hasbro was stupid, but the real effect was worse. In the second, Hasbro was actively making a choice to screw us, but the practical effect is less. Which is worse? It depends on how you weight intent and effect.

I mentioned this a while back, but I'm a consumer, not a stockholder.

Then you should care that they are releasing shittier toys then.

Doesn't seem so bad. Compared to Botcon prices, for instance, it is dirt cheap.

True. But, for an SDCC toy, $100 is an increase over recent years. I want that

My problem is that neither the retail nor the Comic-con version actually looks like the Bruticus we know and love from the G1 cartoon. It looks just similar enough to not stand on its own as its own thing, and not nearly close enough to be a viable version of the characters.

They are not supposed to look like the G1 cartoon characters though. This toy is supposed to look like the characters as they appeared in "Fall of Cybertron".

The pack-in argument went out the window when the Retaliation pack-in figures had 1977 Star Wars articulation.

You are fucking kidding me. Thanks again Hasbro. (Man, if toys pulled this kind of shit in the 90s, I would have been out of the hobby before I was properly in.)

In fact, I really fucking hope they aren't because this whole fake-vehicle-parts thing is really starting to piss me off. I buy transformers because they're robots who turn into vehicles and vehicles that turn into robots; not vehicles that turn into robots that have sculpted parts that look like other parts of the vehicle.

If they have wheels, then where the wheels go during the transformation, THAT'S where the damn wheels should be in robot mode. Period. End of discussion. Fuck the game models. Fuck the cartoon. Fuck the movies. I don't buy those. I buy the toys. That's the thing that's real, to me. That's the tangible thing that I can hold and touch. Everything else should conform to that. That's my expectation.

I can accept some cheating when it makes for a more accurate toy, such as the truck grill/robot stomach on Master Piece Optimus Prime.

But, too much of it is just lazy. This is especially true when a single part is visually in two places at once, such as the robot chest/car grill on movie 1 Legends Jazz. (I do not care if that is a Legends figure. It sucked.) Similarly, it was bothersome on movie 1 Voyager Prime.

I expect screen/page accurate toys that transform without too many cheats. And, that could be delivered if Hasbro put a bit more effort in to the design stage. They have guys like Figueroa, who can design workable transform schemes and still have the characters look good. There is no excuse for there to be character models that do not work as toys and toy designs that to not look like the character models from the cartoons/games/comics.

I don't care that Classics Kup isn't in his All Hail Megatron design; I care that those wheels on his shoulders are actually his wheels.

I agree that Kup, like most of "Generations", is a good figure. But, I am still bothered by the fact that there is no good figure of Kup as he looked in AHM.

Similarly, I actually like the colours on mass retail Blast-Off better than SDCC Blast-Off. But, the SDCC figure is the correct one because that is how Blast-Off looks in the fucking game.

How 'bout you go back to that Game Informer piece and make sure they absolutely SAY that the versions displayed in that article are the retail versions? Only use the original article--don't go off something TFW or Seibertron wrote, because obviously they're going to jump to conclusions and say "This is Generations Bruticus, as-is, on store shelves," because obviously they couldn't have known about SDCC.

"Oh well, they did not say that it was the mass release figure, they just strongly implied it."

Fuck Hasbro. That is a step away from "bait and switch".

Hasbro even fixed the painted forearms in a later release, moulding them in white, which says to me that there was a mistake somewhere and he was always intended to have white-moulded forearms. And the doors thing? Well, that really is purely subjective and applies entirely to how much you prefer Cartoon Jazz over Toy Jazz. (Myself, I'm a Toy Jazz guy, so I like the doors.)

'My' problems with Jazz are his weird angled feet (when so many other toys in the line have awesome ankle rocker swivels, like Scourge and Kup) and his weird double-jointed-for-no-reason knees which only serve to make his legs look awkward in every possible pose. (I think those are a transformation problem though.)

I really wanted to like that toy. But, it fails at being a good Jazz, and it is only a middling TF figure at best. (I like the Ricochet/Stepper a little better. But, that has other problems....)

Dom will buy anything if there's precedent. G2 Bruticus alone is precedent, but since the in-game preorder bonus is G2 Bruticus...well, there you go.

Prowl was actually replying to JT. But, yes, I would be more likely to buy a G2 coloured FoC Bruticus simply because it is game accurate.


Dom
-still kind of annoyed about those Asia market Legends figures....

Dom wrote:But, yes, I would be more likely to buy a G2 coloured FoC Bruticus simply because it is game accurate.

Are you even going to play the damn game?

This slavish devotion to media portrayal is the issue. Obviously people like you place a higher amount of importance on that; for guys like me and 86 and Prowl, it doesn't matter what he looks like in the game, as long as he's a 'good toy.' I don't care if Vortex and Blastoff aren't their traditional colours in the game, and that's why their figures are coloured that way. That's stupid! Colour them the right way in the damn game, then!

My fan opinion below.

The the SDCC Bruticus price isn't that high of a mark up. it only comes out to $6 extra for each figure. that's leaps & bounds better than paying tripple price for repaints at the Botcon conventions.

The SDCC Bruticus is the better deal compared to the BBTS regular colored Bruticus deal.

The HTS site offers free shipping for orders over $50 or $75. Their is always a SDCC saving code to type in the HTS site.

BBTS.com will charge you $10+ in shipping fees & theirs no savings code.

The SDCC Bruticus comes in better colors & a better package gift set box. the regular release FOC Bruticus will come in awful colors & inferior cheaper blister cards.

I was debatting using Rit color powder dye. to change FOC Vortex's colors to medim Grey. so it looks more G-1.

It's gonna be a royal pain trying to oder a SDCC Bruticus gift set on the tuesday after the SDCC convention ends on the HTS.com ordering site. due to the HTS.com freezing up,pausing & shutting hown within a minute of opening up orders for SDCC 2012 exclusives.
I'm gonna try to order one SDCC Bruticus from HTS.com.

I kinda wish I lived in San diego,so I could buy the SDCC Bruticus at the booth.

Since the NYCC 2011 convention had the TFP pink Arcee,taxi bumblebee & the three kids. I think it would make sense to continue this themed pack. I think a good idea,is to Have a Zombie battle damage colored Skyquake with a battle damage FE deluxe starscream with the three TFP human kids as a gift set.

How 'bout you go back to that Game Informer piece and make sure they absolutely SAY that the versions displayed in that article are the retail versions? Only use the original article--don't go off something TFW or Seibertron wrote, because obviously they're going to jump to conclusions and say "This is Generations Bruticus, as-is, on store shelves," because obviously they couldn't have known about SDCC.

Here ya go, smartass, straight from Hasbro's fuckin' mouth no less:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/ ... -toys.aspx

Still playing catch-up with other stuff, so the rest of my replies will have to wait. Sorry.

Got me there. Although, you know what, I'm wondering if somebody messed up and showed the wrong images to begin with.

The HTS.com site has been updated with a new saving code: SUMMER10 ,use this code to save 10% off ur order. this code can be used to save 10% off ur SDCC Bruticus.

my guess is hts.com put up another code for sdcc ordering exclusives.

Dominic wrote:JT and I come at this from a perspective of the hobby taking limited resources. If we are spending out limited discretionary money on something, it had damned well better be worth it. If I have to spend $15 on an action figure (and I am sticking with that number), I want it to be worth the $15 I spend on the figure, the time I spend going to the damned store *and* the space it is going to take up.

We choose out hobbies. We choose to participate. Why the hell would we want to half-ass it, or tolerate/reward official sources half-assing it?

I can forgive small errors, in toys and elsewhere. When I get coffee on a cold morning, I assume that there is a small chance of mistake. I prefer decaf. (Actually, given how much I have cut back on caffeine in recent months, I *need* decaf.) I get cream, and add my own artificial sweetener. But, every so often, somebody makes a mistake, and I get full caffeine. I do not blame them. Things happen. Errors occur. Given the amount of coffee those guys sell, their error rate is actually pretty good. Every so often, I might get a figure with two left feet or something. It happens.

But, when problems are common, or designs/execution are so flawed that it is apparent that Hasbro is not even trying, then I am going to be annoyed because I am expected to pay money for crap.

Quite right. The thing is, we gave a little ground on medium things, we gave Hasbro an inch and it feels like they're taking a mile now - I don't want to feel like a sucker like that, and it doesn't look like it's paying off that well as a business choice on Hasbro's part on the larger scale, but they keep making compromises and gaffes assuming since they were able to not totally fail last time that they can get away with just a little more next time. So how much are we willing to endure? A little? A lot?

Figure it this way, MA sales tax is .0625, which works out to 6c per $1 spent. If a toy's base price is $13.50, the tax is going to be ~70c. This brings the price up to $14.20, leaving less than $1 if you hand the cashier $15. Guess what? That is close enough to $15 in my book.

Damn, that's a low sales tax. I already touched on the fact that your "logic" is entirely flawed since the $100 pricetag on SDCC Bruticus doesn't include the 7.75% CA sales tax. So if that's close enough to $15 in your book, then your math teachers sucked, but also then Bruticus is $110. You are rounding up at every opportunity here, it's sloppy and thoughtless math. If we assume the figure is 50 cents more than MSRP, if we assume 20 cents above $14 is a dollar more, that's useless thinking. You are talking about 5 figures, so if the base price is $13.50 x 5 that's $67.50, $71.72 after tax, or $14.34 per figure, the remainder of your change on each is 66 cents, or $3.30 for 5 figures total, goofus. Now, how "close" is that to your baseline amount of a sub-dollar? Every penny counts, can't just pretend that $14.34 is close enough to $15 when you're walking away over three bucks for the 5.

O6 wrote:It's one thing to see a figure and go, "Oh, that's not what I want," it's another entirely to go, "Hasbro OWES ME the version of the toy I prefer." That's the entitlement complex.

That's a fantasy you and BWP concocted though, that's you guys writing your own scripts for how you perceive others' statements as intentions. Nobody here was saying "you OWE ME the version I prefer, I demand restitution", just that we complained when they made a significant change, "we don't like this, you said it'd be something else, we may not buy this", so Hasbro responded of their own accord by doing this boxed set, but then jacking up the price 55% over the retail version with no justification as to why.

Anyway. $100 isn't too bad. I was honestly expecting more! These aren't retail things, you know. Convention exclusive shit is expensive, because there are less of them made, and (ideally) they're only available at a convention.

That's not the way Hasbro's run it the past 5 years at Comic-Con, and these aren't exclusive molds, they are in-production molds using different-colored plastic and different packaging, that's it. SDCC Galactus and Sentinel didn't carry these inflated prices, the Star Wars 14-pack in a Death Star didn't, Blaster didn't. Even this year's crop with their higher-than-normal pricetags aren't carrying a 55%-above-retail charge the way Bruticus is. There's no tooling difference here, no significant paint mask changes, there's no justification beyond "because we have you by the short and curlies".

Swindle and Brawl are yellow and green in both versions of the toy; just different values of each. When things make the transition from medium to medium, changes are sometimes expected. (Look at Bane in Dark Knight Rises.)

Swindle is beigeish gold on the SDCC version, no yellow. Brawl going from military-style olive drab to lime green is a "night v day" change even if they are both in the green family.

Movie Bane does not seem like a change from medium to medium, it's from extra large to medium-small and totally wrong-looking to me. My favorite example of this is the Mattel 2-pack where he's fighting Bats without his armor, they just sculpted a normal doughy guy for the body who isn't remotely tall or large or imposing at all.

Dom wrote:It is even more fundamental. We self-select into our hobbies. Why should we be expected to settle for crap? Why should we waste time with half-assery?

Apparently because we have no other choice, that seems to be the prevailing argument around here.

At an even more basic level, Hasbro *clearly* wants our money. They want us to buy toys consistently. They know that we as a fandom like things like context-accurate figures. And, knowing this and other things (that they have learned deliberately and through experience), they make a point of selling a significant context accurate toy as an exclusive that is out of reach of a large part of their customer base.

They made a compromise to the retail version that they knew would drive us away, the leveraged sales to the collector base against sales from younger kids and deemed the former to be expendable in pursuit of the latter. Now they are trying to appeal to that collector base they compromised on, but they are applying an artificial premium for the privilege. They've also limited the scope of the collector-focused release, gamers who won't even be able to play the game until September when it comes out are going to want the toy then, but only be able to find the retail version and maybe access to the G2 version, and they're kinda sticklers for getting products that look like source material.

Gustavo wrote:Doesn't seem so bad. Compared to Botcon prices, for instance, it is dirt cheap.

My problem is that neither the retail nor the Comic-con version actually looks like the Bruticus we know and love from the G1 cartoon. It looks just similar enough to not stand on its own as its own thing, and not nearly close enough to be a viable version of the characters.

If Amazon does have a G2 color scheme version, I might go for that one. (I'd heard that was a Japanese exclusive, and that the Amazon one was just the retail release in one box... which would still be easier than actually finding all the figures)

The difference though is that Botcon prices are not sold by Hasbro directly, another company solicits them as their sole product, and the figures often include new molding and special packaging. SDCC Bruticus is sold by Hasbro using existing tooling and paint masks, only change is the color of plastic and paints used, and the packaging.

I would have to agree with you that it doesn't look enough like the G1 character. The game model looks more like it because of its better proportions (thicker limbs and connections, shorter arms, longer legs, big towering cannons), but Hasbro made a lot of compromises to get it to market since they didn't have a Voyager class for Generations when they started planning it.

The Amazon one was stated to be the G2 version to match their exclusive game skin for the character, but we'll know more in a week and a half when we can ask them at Comic-Con.

O6 wrote:Forwarning: This was written at 3am so I might be slightly more hostile than usual! Please disregard anything that seems like a personal attack because it's probably not intended to be.

HOLY SHIT EVERYBODY DUCK AND COVER!!!

I was going to just order a fucking case, but that was before my current situation...and before it was $100 for a case. BBTS, you crazy.

New cases have 8 figures instead of 6.

The pack-in argument went out the window when the Retaliation pack-in figures had 1977 Star Wars articulation.

Yeah, but these SDCC pack-ins are existing tooling where that was new, so it's back in play.

Midseason break. It's all the rage.

Certainly gives viewers rage.


Have you guys seen TFW2k5's pics from Botcon of retail Bruticus?
http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-new ... es-174931/

And of SDCC Bruticus?
http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-new ... es-174945/

The retail one is an even bigger eye-gouge than previous images to me, those colors are so Skittles rainbow of loudness. Meanwhile the SDCC colors actually look a little better than previous looks.

I still say that figure wasn't finished at all, and those wheels will be painted on the finished toy. In fact, they won't even be painted, they'll be moulded, because they're not faux tires.

In fact, I really fucking hope they aren't because this whole fake-vehicle-parts thing is really starting to piss me off. I buy transformers because they're robots who turn into vehicles and vehicles that turn into robots; not vehicles that turn into robots that have sculpted parts that look like other parts of the vehicle.

If they have wheels, then where the wheels go during the transformation, THAT'S where the damn wheels should be in robot mode. Period. End of discussion. Fuck the game models. Fuck the cartoon. Fuck the movies. I don't buy those. I buy the toys. That's the thing that's real, to me. That's the tangible thing that I can hold and touch. Everything else should conform to that. That's my expectation.

I preferred G1 where, if the cartoon model didn't match the toy, everybody just ignored it. And, truly, this is the reason I continue buying the Generations/Classics/whateverthefuck toyline. Those are, in 90% of cases, original designs that need no help from any outside source. Hasbro came up with that. I don't care that Classics Kup isn't in his All Hail Megatron design; I care that those wheels on his shoulders are actually his wheels.

But hey, it's nearly 3am so this probably isn't the place to be having that argument anyway!

(Also, look closely at the pics of Just Onslaught, and it's painfully clear they're the same wheels. They have posts on them.)

I'm not entirely sure I meant FOC Onslaught, I think I meant FOC Optimus and got lost because of the Bruticus discussion. The Toy Fair one is close-colors but you're right, they're not final on Onslaught because those blue wheels on his shoulders do seem to be black on the final version and are not dummies. The more I study it, the more I think I meant Optimus since he definitely has faux wheels, and I don't remember seeing Onslaught's robot mode back yet.

BTW, 3am on the internet is EXACTLY the place to be having that argument.

I agree with ya on the overuse on dummies lately in TF, the entertainment shouldn't make the toy look worse if it's not a vital element. Although if they're going to sculpt wheels and other dummy parts into the figure, I really don't want to see them cast in red or blue or something like that.

And there you miss Prowl's point entirely. It's BECAUSE they spend those hundreds/thousands of dollars on these things that they're allowed to bitch about things like a 2 gram difference in weight, or whatever. Us, on the other hand? We pay $10 at Wal-Mart. Maybe $12 now--and we bitch about that extra $2 constantly. $10 is not really that big of an investment.

They buy 1 or 2 cameras a year and bitch whenever the card slot is changed, we buy lots of $13+ figures a year and aren't complaining about a 2 gram difference. Hell, you in the paragraphs right before this are bitching about something quite strenuously, do you not deserve that right, are you not justified because you didn't spend $1000?

I'm annoyed that Taco Bell doesn't seem to internally regulate their prices, and what is a reasonable $1.49 burrito in one joint is a $2.99 burrito in a different joint. (Also, they seem to have gotten rid of the Cheesy Double Beef Burrito, which makes me really sad since it's the best thing they ever served.)

I could understand it if they bought local ingredients, but they don't, everything comes in cases in pre-sealed bags (pre-cooked for the meats and beans, they're boil-in-bag).

Gustavo has a point; we haven't actually had any confirmation (official or otherwise) that Amazon's would be G2-coloured. Amazon's solicited a Bruticus giftset, and they 'are' doing the G2 Bruty skin in-game, and we have seen pics from a Japanese magazine of a G2 FoC Bruticus toy...but no actual confirmation that all these things are related.

I think the printed article page said Amazon October '12.

Dom wrote:I am staying with my "$15 for a deluxe" arguement, because it is "close enough".

On a related note, does that put the SDCC set at higher than the BBTS set?

"Close enough", lame argument.

If you get the SDCC set from the convention, it's I think $110 after tax. If you get them from HasbroToyShop though, it's $110 with tax PLUS probably another $12 or more in shipping. So I don't know.

And, they still manage to pull stupid shit like this. The market is Darwinistic by nature. Hasbro needs to smarten the fuck up.

Right now it feels like they're in a nosedive in all their brands, so either they tighten up or they flop on their faces like in '01 where they risked bankruptcy and had to totally restructure management and infrastructure.

Thundergate in 2007 was caused by Hasbro being stupid in not releasing their own Thundercracker, and then giving Fun PUblications license to release a Thundercracker. Thundercracker was damned near impossible to get unless you were at BC07 on Friday night.

Now, we have Combatgate. Hasbro is deliberately making the correctly coloured figures exclusive. Of course, SDCC exclusives are generally easier to get than BotCon exclusives.

In the first case, Hasbro was stupid, but the real effect was worse. In the second, Hasbro was actively making a choice to screw us, but the practical effect is less. Which is worse? It depends on how you weight intent and effect.

Yeah, but the promise of possibility of mainstream release on Thundergate was always there, while there's no promise of a subsequent mainstream release here.

Then you should care that they are releasing shittier toys then.

Good point.

They are not supposed to look like the G1 cartoon characters though. This toy is supposed to look like the characters as they appeared in "Fall of Cybertron".

But WFC/FOC is meant to harken to that G1 look in a modern way, so there's the intention of that lineage.

"Oh well, they did not say that it was the mass release figure, they just strongly implied it."

Fuck Hasbro. That is a step away from "bait and switch".

They did say it in that article.

Tigermegatron wrote:The the SDCC Bruticus price isn't that high of a mark up. it only comes out to $6 extra for each figure. that's leaps & bounds better than paying tripple price for repaints at the Botcon conventions.

$7 per figure. That's not a terrible way of looking at it, but it's 55% over retail, I can't look past that easily when there's 5 of 'em, that's $35.

The HTS site offers free shipping for orders over $50 or $75. Their is always a SDCC saving code to type in the HTS site.

"Most" orders over $50, we'll see if this works for that. And if they're jacking prices up, I don't know that they'll be offering a code this year, but maybe. I think the code has traditionally been 15% off. Probably "Comic12" or something along those lines.

I kinda wish I lived in San diego,so I could buy the SDCC Bruticus at the booth.

Living there isn't enough, it's incredibly difficult to get tickets to Comic-Con these days, a buddy of mine lives there and couldn't get tickets. Too many people, not enough facilities for it, the show is capped at 130,000 people now.

Onslaught Six wrote:Got me there. Although, you know what, I'm wondering if somebody messed up and showed the wrong images to begin with.

Did you read the interview? It's clearly the right images, the context of the article makes it quite clear. There's even a mention from the TF design team that the marketing execs make it a struggle to get these delivered in good colors. They thought they won, but I guess the design team lost that battle.

Tigermegatron wrote:The HTS.com site has been updated with a new saving code: SUMMER10 ,use this code to save 10% off ur order. this code can be used to save 10% off ur SDCC Bruticus.

That code expires on July 8th, 3 days before Comic-Con preview night and 8 before HTS puts up their stock.

BWP wrote:Actually, this argument might be moot now. I was just in Target today, and Deluxes are $14.99 now. Granted, they'll probably get sale'd down later on, but still. Damn.

I saw that at one of my stores yesterday, Target is out for blood this year, they've changed the price on deluxes 4 times in the past 6 months, they keep micromanaging prices to compensate for slow sales before big pushes where they lower prices again.

That's a thing though. I may take issue with people complaining about 'first world problems' and indeed, I may post stuff like that from my smartphone. But I'm not complaining about having the smartphone, or bitching that it isn't the right colors or anything. Rather, I'm happy that I have such a device, that it can do all this wonderful stuff, and that I'm in a financial situation where I can afford it. The kids on Twitter who complained Christmas morning about getting the wrong-color iPhone, you think they're justified? That that's worth complaining about, or should they just be happy? Me, I'm happy I have the opportunity to buy cool transforming toys of characters from robot fiction I care about. If one doesn't appeal to me, I just don't buy that and spend my money on something else.

I mean, you're complaining about stuff like Bruticus's colors, and his price, and his disproportionate torso like Hasbro is forcing you to buy it, when they definitely aren't. If you don't like the look of it, that's fine, that's your opinion, don't buy it, but to level so much vitriol at the company that made it like they owe you a toy that appeals to your preferences just comes off as going out of your way to get angry.

First off, you're complaining about someone else's feelings being "wrong", and while I won't get into the ridiculous nonsense comparison to the xmas iphone thing (they are spoiled because that was a gift, if they had PAID THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY FOR A WHITE PHONE AND GOT BLACK THEN THEY WOULD BE JUSTIFIED), I will point out that you are applying your standards and your outrage, you're saying we're spoiled because we don't like the colors on retail Bruticus and don't want to feel gouged for wanting the right colors that were originally shown to us, yet you have the privilege to make that choice and how you express it and you take issue with others for the same.

Yeah, I'm talking about a Transformer and Transformers-related business on a Transformers forum, what a spoiled asshole I am for thinking this might be the proper forum to discuss such things with other Transformers fans. Let's all talk about positive ways we can solve poverty and world hunger and overpopulation and murder and rape and hate instead, because if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem, nobody deserves to have any side interests or personal outlets until every single ill in the world is fixed first, amiright? This is a relative situation and you're applying non-relative standards to it. I am confident that for any and every fan there has been and will likely come another time that Hasbro will do something you don't like with the brand that will annoy you, and whether or not you whistle a happy tune past it, you'll still be bothered by it.

Hiatuses are a big thing with TV shows now, for some reason. It took Cartoon Network over a year to air the first 26 episodes of Young Justice, and now it's on hiatus again. I know Mad Men went through something similar until a couple months ago, and now it's in a season break. Lots of shows do this. I don't know why, and I don't like it, but they do.

It used to be to stretch the amount of time new eps were on the air, shrink the large breaks down a little, but then BSG went a really long time on a break, Eureka followed, all the Syfy shows followed those 2, and now a lot of shows do it to the point where it's impossible to follow a story arc because of 2-month breaks every few episodes. There was a time that TV shows ran nearly the whole year solid, now it's 26 weeks per year at best.

Bright colors, sure, but I wouldn't really call them neon. They're hardly florescent or anything.

That's an odd hair to split. The very figure I referenced, Hasbro's Neon Camo Batman, also doesn't strictly follow your logic: http://gofigureactionfigures.com/product7352.html it's just that the name conjures up years of similar, uglier, even louder-colored Hasbro Batman figures. Still, bright colors are exactly what I meant, even if they aren't day-glo.

The green on Brawl is comparable to the color on Universe Hound.

I would disagree:
http://www.tfu.info/2009/Autobot/TFUHound/hound.htm
If you like I can get out an objective program to analyze the luminosity and such, give you exact differences, but that's a lot of boring work that your eyes should be showing you naturally and instantly.

Swindle's just a shade or two lighter

They're not even the same color FAMILY. Original/SDCC Swindle is beigish gold, no yellow in him at all. Retail there is screaming lemon yellow.

Vortex is actually the same colors the retail one was shown in, just reversified, with red as the chief shade rather than yellow

What are you talking about? Retail Vortex there is a hideous shade of bright red with purple accents. Original/SDCC is a shade brighter than Swindle's gold/beige, with muted crimson accents.

I mentioned this a while back, but I'm a consumer, not a stockholder. I could really care less how Hasbro manages the business side of the line (and indeed, I've said before that I wouldn't mind the line tanking for a year or two so we can see some invention out of necessity to revive the line, BW style). I can understand if you have an interest in that side of it (I used to be very much the same with the anime licensing scene), but I'd still say it would be healthier to follow it as just an interest, rather than getting so wound up about it when you think Hasbro is doing something wrong. You have other interests, right? I can see being amused, or even bemused at Hasbro's business decisions,

Since Hasbro solicits our input and has said that collectors' voices are vital to them, by taking such a hands-off approach you only leave yourself open to the affects that other collectors will have on Hasbro minus your voice, thus minus your interests. You will accept whatever they do and they'll hear from a vocal group at conventions and such and make choices based partly on that input. I'm not going to just take whatever without at least expressing how I feel to my fellow collectors in the hobby.

but it's not like your life is going to come crashing down around you if the TF brand takes a couple years off, so why worry so much about it?

Again, applying your standards to someone else's situation and then getting outraged by what you perceive me to be saying. My life is not going to come crashing down and I NEVER SAID IT WOULD, but I would prefer the Transformers brand I enjoy to not come crashing down around me, that would bother me. Holy shit dude, I didn't equate Bruticus to my burning to death, I said I didn't like being paying 55% over retail for the product they originally solicited. You know where the real stress has been in this thread? You judging and criticizing me. You're acting like it's there's a clear and obvious delineation in the matter despite it being shades-of-gray that you just can't agree with this time. Hell, your next sentence proves it...

I'll agree that pointing out flaws on a figure is reasonable, and discussing/reviewing stuff you've bought and whether it was worth the purchase is entirely reasonable.

So you just perceive my specific comments to be an out-of-line type of thinking, it's a reasonable thing to do right up until it's not?

What I try not to do is fly off the handle when a figure I buy has flaws and start violently griping about it, confident that Hasbro is listening to me and know that they owe me a better toy.

Thanks for painting me in a specific light, and for writing my script for me. So it's ok to point out flaws, but not to "violently" gripe about it. How was what I said "violent"? Did I scream it in your face? Did I use 152pt fonts? Did I threaten to beat up families while I said it? Show me in my opening post you took issue with all the violence, show me where I said they owe me. Show me in my second post, where is it there? Point it out, prove yourself, show us that your script is matching the actual situation it's purporting to be representing. In public you are saying I'm not only wrong but being a dick about it. You are judging another person's written communications while applying your own slant on how you perceive the situation, that's a pretty fucked-up attitude to take while pretending to be above it all. You have no problem holding your tongue for Hasbro apparently, but it's all-hands-on-deck when it comes to everybody else? Don't paint me with your brush.

So I've got no reason to get wound up with Hasbro for putting things in a toy that happened to not work for me personally, how could they have known what I wanted?

I wasn't wound up about this, I expressed my feelings to an open discussion forum and was pretty much done, and those feelings were actually expressed quite tamely - read my first and second post again.

"How could they have known what I wanted?" Well yeah, obviously, they can't have known because you actively don't participate in the process. They know what I want. They know what my friend Tycho wants, he tells them every single year at length at the show what he wants to the point where I roll my eyes and walk away because he has a very specific list of things. They solicit and actively seek out such opinions, but because you feel they're beneath you to express or not your place to take part in this sort of discussion, they don't know what you want.

But that's not what we're talking about, we're not talking about a missing line or invisible detail, we're talking about the way the WHOLE FIGURE looks. We even have taken the issue beyond the context to just a general point of aesthetics and marketing. You talk about us as if we're spoiled, but this is about quality and consistency, realistic expectations vs value, quantifiable aspects important to the brand itself. When you get Onslaught, will you notice that the faux tires on his back aren't painted at all, only sculpted and cast in the same blue plastic as the area around it? I bet you will notice, and I bet a little part of you will feel a twinge of annoyance at it too, and that's REASONABLE.

Talking about Onslaught, no, I was not aware until now that he had fake tires molded on his back, but since they're unpainted, I actually see that as not a big deal. Is it weird that they sculpted fake kibble into him, but then didn't paint it to call attention to it? Yeah, but it's a single-color piece, and I'll hardly notice it since it's unpainted, he'll look like he only has the total of four tires anyway, so the fake kibble is hardly a bother. I am bothered by how skinny he looks, but being as he's the center part of Bruticus, who I DO like the look of, I'll likely be at least satisfied with his function in that form. Maybe his vehicle mode will be cool too? Toy's not even out yet, let's wait and see.

Up until now, I thought you felt everything was strawberries and smiles with this set.

Anyway, I never said or implied the unpainted faux tires were a big deal, I said you'll notice that and suspect part of you will be a tiny bit annoyed by it, and it would be a reasonable response.

and again, we're on a Transformers collecting forum, we're here to talk with others with similar interests about these very sorts of things, to compare notes and discuss the pros and cons, to overgeneralize that as spoiled is take the very idea of collecting out of context. If we just gobbled up whatever and didn't voice our opinions, how would Hasbro know what our market wants to see addressed next time around? If we don't voice our grievances in an open forum, then we only do ourselves and those like us a disservice. It's up to the group as a whole to decide what is and isn't within the norm within the group. You say we're spoiled because we want a product that looks the way it did when it was originally solicited, and it was originally solicited that way because of its context, and we don't want to be gouged for wanting that, especially in light of Hasbro's previous selling actions at Comic-Con - well, none of us are Mother Theresa, so I guess that's spoiled, but every time you buy 1 figure and don't buy another one, that makes you exactly as spoiled, so either accept it's all relative or continue trying to demonize others who don't think the way you do.

How does buying a figure then not buying another one make me spoiled? I accept that a toy isn't my cup of tea and move on. If Hasbro wants my feedback, they can ask for it (has Hasbro ever done a Fan's Choice poll, like the ones they do for Marvel and Star Wars, for Transformers, ever?), but until then I'll accept that the toys aren't explicitly designed for me and just get the ones that catch my fancy anyway. I'm not their target audience, I know this, so I would never ask them to make something that compromises that fact. If they do (SDCC Bruticus), then that's not bad either.

You misunderstand, I am saying that every time you choose to buy 1 figure over another, you are as spoiled as anybody else voicing a preference. You said we're spoiled for voicing our preferences in discussion here, and I was saying that you're also voicing your preference but doing so at the register with your dollars.

Hasbro couldn't do a fan's choice poll the way Star Wars has it because the entertainment in TF is predicated by the toys, whereas in SW the toys are predicated by the entertainment. However, they have repeatedly asked our opinions on stuff like Hall of Fame, which gives them marketing feedback to a degree, and in other ways as well. They make what they make, they are in charge, that's not in question, but they ask us to help them shape where the brand goes.

Generations IS designed for you, they're designed for collectors, and meant to also appeal to casual consumers.

To me, that says "Kids and babies like bright, clashing colors, while adults who have learned to become people do not", which to me (and again, correct me if I'm misreading here) comes off like anyone who does happen to like those things is a baby, a little kid, not an adult, or less of a person. I happen to like the bright hues on guys like Energon Sharkticon, ROTF Bludgeon, and BotCon Cindersaur. I get that you don't like those sorts of colors, and that's your opinion, and your right, but I have to take issue with you insinuating that I'm immature or less of a person because I happen to like certain colors.

On the other hand, I collect toys, read comic books, and watch cartoons and Japanese super hero shows, so maybe my maturity is up for debate here.

What you inferred is not about me, it's about you; I was pretty clear with what I said and that wasn't it. I said babies like things ONLY because they're bright and shiny and colorful, but as they grow up and learn to become people, that is no longer their solitary criteria for liking something.

Actually, in my eyes, it's more like if I'd been buying falafel at Trader Joe's for year's, Trader Joe's solicited a new kind of falafel that looked good, I saw those solicits and said "Oh, that looks like it might be good, I'll try it when it comes out", it comes out, they've changed the recipe a bit since the original solicits, I try it, and I don't like it. But that's okay, because Trader Joe's still carries lots of other varieties of falafel that I DO like, and indeed plenty of other kinds of foods besides, so I'm not going to starve just because one new item they came out with doesn't suit my tastes.

Which is it, there's a lot of big combiners to choose from, or this is a unique situation?

Actually, perfect example here: The other week I went up to the hospital's food court to get lunch, and they were advertising the special that day: Taco salad! I love taco salad! So I got in line, and waited in line for my taco salad, and RIGHT as my turn to order came, they announced that they had run out of the ground beef for the taco salad and would be substituting in 'fajita beef', this mixture of beef strips, onions, tomatoes, and bell peppers that I'm not particularly fond of. I asked them when they might have more ground beef available, they said 'a few minutes', I waited a few minutes to no ground beef, so finally I just sucked it up, grabbed a slice of pizza instead, and went back to the office to eat lunch. Disappointing? Sure. But I didn't gripe about my issue with it to the people in line at the checkout, I didn't bitch about it to my co-workers, I didn't log into the hospital forum (we have one!) to voice my indignation at the sub-par taco salad situation, because it's just a flippin' taco salad! It's absolutely not worth my time and energy to complain to people who probably aren't even listening about it.

I appreciate your interest in conserving my time and energy, but if it's all the same to you I'll make those choices for myself, thanks. And I'm not worried about people who aren't listening, I'm expressing my feelings to my friends and opening it up to discussion on that specific matter. If I spent a considerable amount of my discretionary hobby money and time on taco salad, then I might seek out discussions with other taco salad enthusiasts and have discussions - pro and con - about taco salads, and I wouldn't feel that's a waste of my time and energy. But since I rarely eat taco salad or think about taco salad, I relegate those conversations to "virtually never" and save my time and energy for other things, like work, toy collecting, friends, photography, driving, watching tv, cleaning, paying for these forums so I can get trashed on the internet by people who are bitching about the perception of others trashing something on the internet.

I was annoyed when Taco Bell got rid of the Grilled Stuft Burrito to replace it with the 'XXL' Grilled Stuft Burrito, a product that I personally feel is inferior and doesn't appeal to me, but Taco Bell still offers the Crunchwrap, and the Enchirito, and the Beefy 5-Layer Burrito, and other stuff I like, so I still go to Taco Bell, and just order that other stuff I like.

I also felt that way, but then after a few months without the Grilled Stuft Burrito I realized I could enjoy life without diarrhea. I actually did like that burrito, and the crunchwrap (although they are getting really lazy with those, I had my first Taco Bell of the year a couple weeks ago and it was soggy and sloppy, which is why I hadn't had anything from them in a while) and the enchirito, but since moving to a better part of town with more store options and better restaurants I've gotten out of the habit of fast food in general, and Taco Bell was pretty low on my list to begin with (Carl's Jr > Chipotle > Subway > Jack in the Box > Panda Express > In & Out [yeah I said it! Not #1] > Arbys > Popeyes > KFC > Del Taco > Rally's > El Pollo Loco [they've slipped a lot lately as their prices have outgrown their quality] > Wendy's [ditto] > Burger King > McDonalds > Taco Bell [I can't think of a fast food chain I'd less like to solicit these days, I actually thought Taco Bell was higher but I can't think of a single one on this list I wouldn't go to first before Taco Bell]).

Wait, what the hell? You think retail Bruticus's colors are too bright, and here you are contemplating getting a G2 colored version? Make up your mind, man!

Yeah world, that's right, it's my money bitch, I can do what I want! I'm a fuckin' grown-up, and if I decide I don't like the SDCC one maybe I'll buy the Amazon one in its hideous G2 colors because Dom made a persuasive argument. THAT COULD HAPPEN AND THERE'S NOTHING ANYBODY CAN DO ABOUT IT, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Your minds = blown.