TF Views

Man, Akibaranger looks hilarious and awesome (The yellow one has PIGTAILS on her helmet!) but I really don't see it being imported over here.

And I'm not about to get into an argument about exploiting the female form and what constitutes as sexploitation or not but I'm pretty sure the T-AI PVC wasn't intended to be pervy at all. (Okay, maybe a little bit, but this is Japan we're talking about.)

Onslaught Six wrote:Man, Akibaranger looks hilarious and awesome (The yellow one has PIGTAILS on her helmet!) but I really don't see it being imported over here.

I've only seen two episodes so far (waiting on the third one to be subbed), but it's pretty terrific. And makes some pretty hard-hitting points about fandom and otaku-dom in Japan, as well as in the grand scheme of things. It's a surprisingly earnest and insightful series, but still hilarious and parodic like it needs to be (You can *see* the actual smoke pots in the background when they pose post-transformation! AkibaRed slashes a whole circle of mooks with the hair molded into his helmet!).

I've got a rebuttal to JT's points being worked out in my head, but I'm going to need to be at home where I can pull up refences and the like to properly write it up. So...stay tuned?

*grabs popcorn*

If Prowl's idea ever makes it to the US, I *hope* that it kills the fucking hobby.

I have little time for women who bitch and whine about how the world is male and mean and exploitive. They are fucking grown ups. And, fankly, men are also objectified in ways that few of us could match. (Seriously, how many people have the muscles, frame and face of a leading man?) Big deal. We are all grown ups. Lets move on.

But, I have even less time/tolerance for borderline pedophile porn.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AI_PVC.jpg
That's a little exploitative.

Then there's everything here:
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Shaoshao_Li
even the KP Position versions are sexually-exploitative costumes there, and they're drawn on little-kid bodies.

You know that "know it when you see it" standard? Well, when I regret clicking a link while on a public computer, I am counting that as "seeing it".
(JT, you might want to lable those not safe for work.

Seriously, there is a picture of what looks to be a 13 or 14 year old in bondage gear.

I am tempted to run this by some parents that I know, just to see what they say.

Ever hear "he likes comic, he likes toys, he also likes little boys"? That stereotype is not as common as it once was, but damn this kind of thing does little to help matters.

Honestly, shit like that makes me doubt being in the hobby. If they brought it over here, I would drop the hobby and never look back. Those statues they make for DC characters, (even the some non anime "Supergirl" comics in recent years), make me cringe. (Supergirl is vageuly 18ish, so tarting her up is not even close to as cringe worthy as "Kiss Play" and other "beautiful girl" anime. But, the character had a few "men in trench coats" moments in the previous decade.)

(Okay, maybe a little bit, but this is Japan we're talking about.)

That does not make it okay.


Dom
-almost afraid to clue non-fans in on this though....

In all seriousness: Yeah, Kiss Players was bad. But it's also par for the course for what Takara was going for at the time.

Japan is in the middle of a *huge* birthrate crisis right now and, as such, not as many children are buying toys. Takara was dealing with some major sales problems in 2005-2006ish if you'll recall. The tail end Cybertron toys that you thought were hard to find? Most of them didn't even come out in Japan, and if they did, they were USA Edition imports. (Menasor, for example, never came out in Galaxy Force.) The line was hemmoraging money, so they changed focus. Go for the other market, the adult fans and the "cute, borderline pedophilia sexualized children" market, which is also huge in Japan, because social norms allow it to be so.

Dominic wrote:

(Okay, maybe a little bit, but this is Japan we're talking about.)

That does not make it okay.

You and I both know that societal norms and "sexual morality" or whatever the fuck is subjective. Here in America, many of us go, "Ew, no, that's Not Cool," and on some level, no, it isn't. But at the same time, Japan has a different set of norms and ideas about sexuality and the role of the female in society, and their media is a product of that. We don't try to censor racist WWII-era Bugs Bunny cartoons or pretend they don't exist; we say, "This was a thing that happened and, at the time it was made, that was okay with everybody. It isn't now, but that doesn't mean we should pretend it didn't happen." Similarly, Japan has a different attitude. Maybe over the course of the next 50 years, they'll become Enlightened In American Sensibilities and change their ways*, and stuff like KP or the entire moe fad (definitely read up on that for context, Dom, since that's very important here) will be looked at the same way we look at "Bugs Bunny Nips The Nips," today.

*which is debatable if we're in the right here or if we're just transposing our Big Fat American White Christian Views on a country that's been doing shit like this since before America was a country

-almost afraid to clue non-fans in on this though....

For the love of God, why? It was a phase that only happened in Japan, and also fell flat on its face. (When this tactic didn't work, Takara gave up and merged with Tomy. Luckily, the live action movie was coming out at this point and shifted all the focus away from KP and onto the movies. They followed it up with Henkei and the rest is history.)

Dominic wrote:If Prowl's idea ever makes it to the US, I *hope* that it kills the fucking hobby.

But, I have even less time/tolerance for borderline pedophile porn.

You know that "know it when you see it" standard? Well, when I regret clicking a link while on a public computer, I am counting that as "seeing it".
(JT, you might want to lable those not safe for work.

Seriously, there is a picture of what looks to be a 13 or 14 year old in bondage gear.

I am tempted to run this by some parents that I know, just to see what they say.

Oh wow Dom, is this your first time actually seeing anything from Kiss Play? Yeah, it gets pretty outlandish. JT didn’t even link to the most unfortunate case, Atari, who you might remember as the little girl who nearly got Legion’d in those early manga pages. There’s that legendary chapter where Starscream’s ghost possesses her while she’s in the bathroom and runs out to wreak havoc, only to be foiled when he realizes he neglected to pull his host’s panties back up. Classy stuff. To say nothing of when Atari is introduced that other Kiss Player operative who promptly kisses her, bites her tongue while doing so, and drinks some of the blood.

Look, I want to make the point that ‘cute’ Japanese art/character designs can be used without getting into bizarre/horrible shit like that, but I just gotta wait until I get home so I can do it properly, with visual aids and the like.

Those statues they make for DC characters, (even the some non anime "Supergirl" comics in recent years), make me cringe. (Supergirl is vageuly 18ish, so tarting her up is not even close to as cringe worthy as "Kiss Play" and other "beautiful girl" anime.

Kotobukiya’s Bishoujo line isn’t particularly progressive, but it’s at least marginally better than the Ame-Comi statues DC did before (point of reference, the outlandishly-redesigned and oversexed Ame-Comi statues were actually designed by an American art team, whereas the comparatively classier and more demure Bishoujo line’s looks are actually Japanese in origin).

Dom
-almost afraid to clue non-fans in on this though....

Dude, this Kiss Play stuff has been around for ages and has already made the rounds. I’m really genuinely surprised you were so in the dark about the content of it still.

it is less a question of me not knowing about it than it is a question of me not liking it any more now than I did then.

Kotobukiya’s Bishoujo line isn’t particularly progressive, but it’s at least marginally better than the Ame-Comi statues DC did before (point of reference, the outlandishly-redesigned and oversexed Ame-Comi statues were actually designed by an American art team, whereas the comparatively classier and more demure Bishoujo line’s looks are actually Japanese in origin).

Wait, the "tarted up 12 year olds" stuff came out of America?

Damn....

Dominic wrote:Wait, the "tarted up 12 year olds" stuff came out of America?

Damn....

If these are the ones you're thinking of, then yeah, those were designed by Americans.

-BW "I actually rather like the Robin" prowl

Those don't look too horribly terrible, on the scale. I've seen worse.

(Mind you, not something I'd ever buy, but tastes and all. I don't buy statues. And I like my superheroes drawn not like anime chicks.)

JediTricks wrote:No, but if a plush toy of a puppy is wearing a short skirt and posed flashing its panties, that is sexually exploitive.

Well that’s kind of particular. Come on, a puppy in a little sun dress would be nothing short of darling.

Let's drop the odd hyperbole, because we're not talking about puppies, we're talking about female people -- people aren't intended to be ONLY cute, to use one as such is exploiting them even if they are fictional because it represents a greater group (in this case "cute girls"). T-AI is not terribly exploitative, except perhaps her female proportions (let's not quibble over the fact that she's not human or alive at all since she's expressed to the audience as a visual medium), but then there's this:

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AI_PVC.jpg

That's a little exploitative.

Then there's everything here:

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Shaoshao_Li

even the KP Position versions are sexually-exploitative costumes there, and they're drawn on little-kid bodies.

This was my point though: that the Kiss Players stuff (and by extension, the KT Ai figure, which was designed by the same guy) went too far into the skeevy realm of things, which is why there were problems with it. What I’m trying to say is that you can have cute anime character paling around with Transformers characters without turning it into a pervy-minded fapfest.

How do you make Carly cute without being exploitative? She's not terribly sexy or cute in G1 that I can remember, she's blonde and a female but not tarted up or cuted up, if you'll forgive the turn of phrase, she's just a girl. If you try to make her a "cute Transformers-themed girl" you step right onto the minefield we're discussing here.

It’s a design thing. No one’s saying aforementioned cute anime girls have to be ‘tarted up’. Look at Yotsuba: picture of childhood innocence and infectious enthusiasm and happiness. Nothing remotely ‘sexualized’ about her design, but she is ‘cute’. Look at either of her Revoltech toys:



It’s a little girl with a hat, a popsicle, and bug-catching kit (the other version includes a water pistol). It’s definitely cute, but I think we can agree that it’s not intended to get people hot and bothered.

Or turn to some of the merch from the insanely popular Touhou series. Here's Cirno in Mameshiki form, as well as a Nendoroid, a whole toyline Japan has of characters just being 'cute', as opposed to exploited:



Cute and huggable, sure, but saying that this is intended to be sexualized would be reaching like crazy.

Heck, even going off of Transformers you have Minerva, who’s actually getting a new figure soon:



Sure she’s attractive from a design standpoint, and a Cute Anime Girl, but you can’t say there’s anything terribly sexual about her design. Heck, even that PVC figure that came out way back had her in a more ‘cute’ recoiling pose, rather than posing sexy-like or flashing her panties or taking a bath while Ginrai peeked over the rocks at her and a Gilmer bath toy squirted water from between her legs.

Hey, we can even cross gender boundaries. Check out the soccer-playing boys of Inazuma Eleven:



Sharp designs? Check. Cute? Most of them. Sexualized? You’ve got to be kidding.

Anyway, my whole point is that yeah, it would have been possible to pack TFs in with cute anime figurines without turning the whole practice into a creep-fest. Kiss Players, with its collar-wearing, ass-jutting design sensibilities, and macabre story content filled with borderline rape and vore content, went way too far into the worst aspects you’ve described about such things, but that’s certainly not the only option, as I’ve tried to illustrate.

See, that's no good, and not just because it's a Prius. It has to be done in a way that makes some level of sense in robot mode.

I think it’s important to note that Akibaranger is a parody series, so the Machine Itashar is designed with that in mind, from being a Sentai Mecha that transforms into a Prius, to having to keep the whole otherwise hollow driver’s compartment section in its chest so the Rangers can still fit in and drive the thing.

Onslaught Six wrote:Those don't look too horribly terrible, on the scale. I've seen worse.

Dude, this is Dom. The guy that thought the Agent Helix toy was an over-the-top piece of pervy plastic wrongness on account of her kinda looking like she's wearing a corset.