GI Joe General

[Dominic]

"GI Joe" has been in free-fall since, ironically enough, the 25th anniversary. And, the property was not exactly robust before that.

Hasbro really started to get their business model right in the mid-90s (with "Beast Wars"), which is precisely when Joe would have been getting more difficult to market, effectively costing Joe years of brand building. By the time that Hasbro launched "the Unicron Trilogy", "GI Joe" was permanently several steps behind the market and losing more ground every year.

By the time the movies came out, "GI Joe" was operating at the level of a secondary brand. Stores would rarely, if ever, get full waves/cases of figures. And, unless somebody was willing to go out of there way to find out what was coming out, they may well not see every figure (or even know what figures were coming out).


Dom
-"GI Joe: A Real Market Six Hero"

[Shockwave]

I can't help wondering if part of the problem isn't based on the fact that GI Joe is based so heavily on the US military. I never really got into it was a kid cause I grew up in the military and saw stuff like what they had every day. And, I think that might be symptomatic of the larger problem with GI Joe as opposed to Transformers. People like escapism. They turn to fiction as an escape from reality and if things are TOO grounded in reality it becomes boring and people lose interest. And I have to wonder if that's what's happened with GI Joe. I mean, what have we really seen since the 25th line? Not much. And not much of that wasn't based, at least in part, on some real world militaria. Transformers has "space robots" that keep the escapism but GI Joe doesn't necessarily have that luxury. I mean, let's look at when Joe seems to be at it's most popular. Back in the '80s with the whole "Vs. Cobra" thing where they all had vehicles and playsets that were batshit crazy and awesome. Also during the 25th line when most of the 80's toys were redesigned or reissued. Case in point, batshit crazy is good escapism, real militaria is not.

Then there's the whole international marketability which is also problematic. Example: Gomess has no interest in his own military, much less ours. Marketing a toy line based on the US military to non US countries... I guess kinda makes us look a little douchey ("Hey we're so awesome we made toys of ourselves!")

[BWprowl]

The whole 'Military Marketability' thing is actually why I tend to be mystified as to why Hasbro has completely failed to successfully sell the shit out of 'GI Joe'. I mean, the kids today LOVE that sort of shit, with their Calls of Duty and Battlefields and so forth, Hasbro shouldn't have to work very hard to make toys of that sort of environment sell. I mean jeez, they dumped a ton of money and marketing into making TWO big-ass TF video games, how hard would it have been to comission some B-level game developer to squirt out a moderny-military GI Joe-based First-Person-Shooter, then sell a shit-ton of toys based on that? It almost seems like it would be TOO easy.

[Shockwave]

Damn. I hadn't thought of that but you're right, they really have massively missed the boat on that one. I would totally be down for a CoD type GI Joe game. One map could be the Terrordrome, the GI Joe Headquarters, various other points throughout the world, hell they could even do Cobra-la if they got really hard up. And they could have it where you could choose a few characters on either faction. Play as Cobra Commander or Duke.

[Dominic]

"GI Joe" has never been realistic. (I could post walls of text about this. But, no. It is arguably less realistic than TF. Accept this and move on.)

In the UK, Joe was marketed as "Action Force: International Heroes", complete with a theme song. (It is on Youtube and everyting. Wacky stuff.) Many of the characters were significantly re-written to be from other countries. (I think that Mutt and Junkyard were Scottish. If anybody has an extra 25A Mutt, I have need of one of customizing.)

But, there is probably something to the idea that military imagery is less marketable. "GI Joe" got a shot in the arm back in '01. But, the shine was largely gone less than two years later after we blundered in to Iraq and out vast military might was becoming more apparently illusory and expensive.

I have actually been spending some time thinking about this over the last week. (As the weather gets nicer, I am walking home and like to decompress my thoughts a bit.)

For the sake of time/space, I am just going to consider the movie-era. But, I could go back to the UT (80s renaissance) if anybody *really* wants me to.


2006:
"Sigma 6", Hasbro's latest (and most energetic) attempt to relaunch "GI Joe" is sputtering out. Despite having a cartoon and a new-reader accessible comic, people are not buying in for "Sigma 6". Collectors and customizers are unhappy with the new-look/scale figures. And, kids are not biting in large enough numbers. Hasbro tries to rebrand "Sigma 6" as a sort of generic adventure line (similar to their failed attempt to keep "GI Joe" running in the 70s), with predictable results. Devil's Due Productions was publishing a Joe comic that occassionally used character art based on recent (though not necessarily current) toys, and was generally having a hard time getting new readers and keeping old readers happy.

With TF, "the Unicron Trilogy" was winding down and being replaced with "Classics" (featuring mostly old characters using new moulds based on new control art). There was no post UT cartoon. And, IDW's comic existed apart from the toy line in all but name.


2007:
"GI Joe" was more successful than it had been in *decades* with the 25th Anniversary line. The 25A line initially featured old characters using new moulds that were mostly based on old control art. (Hasbro cheaped out on moulding in more than one case. But the toys were clearly supposed to be based on the original control art.) No cartoon. The comics continued as they had been. (I liked most of DDP's run with "GI Joe". But, I am not going to pretend that they were successful or that they managed it as well as they should have.)

There was a "Transformers" movie released in 2007. You mght have heard of it. There was no new cartoon series in 2007. But, the movie pushed an already robust franchise even further. And, IDW's movie comics let them push in to the mass market.


2008:
"GI Joe" dropped the 25A branding, and sub-divided itself between straight riffs on old toys, toys based on the comics, toys based on the cartoon and toys referencing international recolours (though not the international characters). There were a few new characters and some modern variations on old characters. But, for the most part, the Joe line consisted of "old characters, pressed from new moulds, based on old control art". No cartoon. And, Hasbro pulled the comics license from DDP, meaning that there was no new Joe content. (For the record, DDP did a good job of ending their run, which was a continuation of the origional Marvel run.)

TF did a good job of riding the movie momentum. The dominant TF line was based on the "Transformers: Animated" televisioni series. As well as it did, it was possibly dwarfed by the non-media supported "Transformers Universe" line (featuring a combination of old characters using new moulds and new characters pressed form old moulds). Hasbro and IDW began sharing character art.


2009:
There was a "GI Joe" movie this year. (No. Honest. I swear to god, there was.) Before the push for the movie began, Hasbro released "GI Joe: Resolute". "Resolute" was similar to TF:Classics/Universe in that it featured old characters, pressed from new moulds using new control art. There was a direct-to-video movie for "Resolute"....and it was terrible. It was so fucking bad. It was not even kid-friendly....despite being a cartoon and.....oh fuck I do not even want to talk about it.

The Joe movie....failed. I get the feeling that everybody involved was trying. But, things just did not work out. The movie was not the commercial failure that some people think it was. It made "summer movie money". But, considering that "Rise of Cobra" had a foundation in a franchise that was 25+ years old and that it *needed* to revive that franchise, summer movie money was not good enough. IDW got the comics license. Their main "GI Joe" book was only slightly more articulate than the movie. And, within a few months of the movie coming out, IDW had largely divorced their comic from it, going so far as to establish that their Cobra Commander was not the same as the "Doctor" character they showed in early issues.

"Transformers" got a second movie as "Animated" ended. IDW kept chugging along with comics (movie and otherwise). "Transformers" acknowledged that it was 25 years old, but nobody cared. There was so much current product/content that there was little need to focus on what had come before.

2010-2012:
The "GI Joe" movie toys were phased out for a vaguely branded continuation. This was similar to the yellow-package "Transformers", but with even less definition. Duke, a mainstay character, was redesigned twice in this time. The vaguely branded line's packaging strongly resembled the packaging for "GI Joe: Renegades". The premise for "Renegades" was more or less "the A-Team with Joes", complete with the characters riding around the south-western US in a van righting a "wrong of the week". (Yes. GI Joe's primary media presence was reduced to riffing on another summer movie that was itself a rehash of another dated property.) IDW's comics continued to go there own way, actively ignoring the movie and Hasbro. Waves of figures were being sent directly to third-tier retailers/discounters.

The second Joe movie ended up getting delayed....for reasons that were never quite clear but probably had something to do with "a complete lack of confidence" in the property.

Transformers got a third movie in 2011. Starting in late 2010, cancelled and limited run figures were a problem. And, Hasbro glutted the market with 3 lines (with no media support) in 2010. But, it was still possible to find *new* TF product on shelves at most stores. "Transformers: Prime" was hindered by poorly timed distribution. But, Hasbro made an honest, if flawed attempt to unify and cultivate the IP side of "Transformers". IDW continued their G1 comics and began publishing TF:Prime themed mini-seires and one-shots.


2013:
The second Joe movie was released. And, a significant part of the plot involved burying as much of the first movie as possible. The movie tie-in figures are getting less shelf-space than the (non-media supported) 25A figures. There is no upcomign media tie-in planned for the remainder of the year. IDW did not even bother to release a comic book adaptation of the movie. (They did release a prequel comic...and it was.....bad.)

"Transformers: Prime" is ending, but only as a fourth TF movie is being planned. There are still current toys. Similarly to 2008, the media-supported "Prime" is sharing space with "Generations" (which is cross-branded with a video-game and is presented as being the prequel to "Prime"). In other words, there are *two* media supported TF lines. And, there is a planned wave of figures designed to tie-in with IDW's comics (which at this point have been telling a more or less linear story for about 8 years.)


At this point, Hasbro might have to accept that "GI Joe" is going to be a "summer movie" property that they can use during "off-years" for "Transformers", even if "Transformers" is likely to get more shelf-space at most stores.


Dom
-time for Joe to retire?

[Shockwave]

"GI Joe" has never been realistic. (I could post walls of text about this. But, no. It is arguably less realistic than TF. Accept this and move on.)

GI Joe Vs. COBRA has never been realistic. The original line first produced back in the 60s was there to basically put out figures wearing uniforms of existing military personal at the time. Plus, even in the Vs. Cobra era we still have real vehicles in the line. I have seen a Mobat in real life. It is not called a Mobat, but you get the point, the vehicle actually does exist. The Cobra Rattler is technically a... shit, what is that plane called? The one Powerglide is based on... anyway, again, the point is the thing exists. So there is a real military basis for the line. The fact that the vs. Cobra era started in ~82 had so few real life vehicles is actually why I started to get into it at that time. It was escapism and had me imagining how much cooler living on a military installation would be if we had even half of that stuff.

So... once again, when is "Joe" popular? When it has the batshit crazy 80's going on. From about 82-87/88 it dominated the toy aisles along with Transformers. Then it got away from that and it tanked. It didn't really gain new life again until the 25th anniversary when it got popular again by... once again releasing the 1980s designs. Soon as those were gone again, the line has all but faded into obscurity.

[Dominic]

If there is a bigger misconception about "GI Joe" than "it is or was at any time realistic", it is "getting away from realistic military hurt the brand".


"GI Joe" started branching out from straight-military" around 90 or so....when the Cold War ended. The army was less of thing to begin with. Toys were taking a hit from video-games. And, GI Joe had to adapt. There were attempts to cross-brand Joe with sports, radio control cars and other products. There was even a "combat pay promotion". Hasbro would package "combat pay" coupons in with Joe figures. And, those coupons could be used for discounts on other Hasbro products, including non-toy items like sporting goods.

At that point, "GI Joe" became a hobby for existing/older fans and steadily less appealling for newer fans. After the Cold War, Americans moved on wholly to parties and consumerism. GI Joe had a patina of "military", which put it out of step with the times, especially as the "get the Feds off my back" and finding enemies at home mentality took hold in the 90s.

In '01, Joe rode the nostalgia wave. But, that did not last. And, again, Americans were tired of war, which made parents reluctant to buy the toys for their kids. (Hasbro even responded to this. "Valor/Venom" was more "superhero" than "military".)


The 25th Anniversary was successful among fans. That line was a hit with the over-30 crowd. The under-10 crowd.....not so much. Think about this. "GI Joe" was successful when it looked back to the 80s....to well before people (kids) buying other lines were even born. When the first move came out in '09, a girl at the pizza place saw me reading the novelization and said "wow, that is old".

She was maybe (20) at most. She was born at the tail end of when Joe was last relevant in the market. The Cold War is a rumour as far as she was concerned. She was barely out of elementary school when the WTC was destroyed. During her formative years, she learned to associate the military with the most distressing parts of the news that adults watched. How can her generation possibly not find "GI Joe" and all of its faux-realistic military imagery appealling?


Also, it bears pointing out that most Joe fans never really "got out". We stayed in to Joes (and/or toys as a whole) when our contemporaries largely moved on. But, as Joe faded in the toy market, it lost the chance to gain even that sort of fan, never mind the casual buyers/kids that most toy lines rely on.


Dom
-maybe it could be rebranded as either soft sci-fi or espionage noir?

[BWprowl]

"GI Joe" has never been realistic. (I could post walls of text about this. But, no. It is arguably less realistic than TF. Accept this and move on.)

But, there is probably something to the idea that military imagery is less marketable. "GI Joe" got a shot in the arm back in '01. But, the shine was largely gone less than two years later after we blundered in to Iraq and out vast military might was becoming more apparently illusory and expensive.

And I’ll bring in my point again: Realistic military imagery can be INSANELY marketable. Go ahead, look up the sales numbers for the last few games in the ‘Call of Duty: Modern Warfare’ and ‘Battlefield’ series, it’s absolutely psychotic. And a lot of those are from 8-12-year-old boys, exactly the market Hasbro wants buying their shit. That Hasbro apparently cannot sell military-themed toys to those kids says a LOT about how badly they’ve failed to market the property.

It was not even kid-friendly....despite being a cartoon and.....oh fuck I do not even want to talk about it.

I certainly won’t dispute the awfulness of ‘Resolute’ but I find a couple things interesting about this statement here. First of all, you seem to indicate that not being kid-friendly was a ‘shortcoming’ of ‘Resolute’, despite the fact that it clearly set out to not be kid-friendly; indeed, that was one of the selling points of it (it pointedly aired on Adult Swim, as opposed to vanilla Cartoon Network). Second, what do you mean ‘despite being a cartoon’? What Air Bud rulebook are you reading from that says cartoons have to be kid-friendly? DC, for example, been releasing DTV animated movies for years now that definitely wouldn’t qualify as ‘kid-friendly’, and some of those don’t even suck the way ‘Resolute’ did. My point is that your thinking is pretty narrow if you honestly believe that All Cartoons Is For Kids.

[Shockwave]

If there is a bigger misconception about "GI Joe" than "it is or was at any time realistic", it is "getting away from realistic military hurt the brand".

Except you seem to be ignoring the pre cobra era. The 1960's "Kung Fu Grip" era when Joe figures were more or less based on actual military uniforms. As for the misconceptions, I was actually arguing the opposite: "Getting away from UNrealistic military hurt the brand".

I'm not saying that what you said isn't true, it is, and you're right, it would probably be better to rebranded as sci-fi rather than "military" at this point.

[Dominic]

Post Viet Nam, "military GI Joe" took a big hit.

At this point, it exists almost entirely in the past tense. (As much as I like the comics, when the most active and progressive thing in the property is the *secondary* comic, there is a problem. As good as "Cobra" is, it should not consistently be the best damned thing out there for Joe.)