TF Views

If Nova Prime and Galvatron and the others could survive the Dead Universe, so could Kup. Seeing the the current plotline apparently ties into the Dead Universe, I don't have a problem with involving Kup in the storyline. Now's the time if ever there was one.

As for Thundercracker and Sunstreaker being dead, you just keep believing that if you want.

andersonh1 wrote:If Nova Prime and Galvatron and the others could survive the Dead Universe, so could Kup.

Yeah, and it seems that most of the characters who have gone to the Dead Universe dies, but is eventually resurrected, sooner or later. Nova Prime. Jhiaxus. HardHead. All of them have been stated as having died at some point, yet they live on. Really, it was only a matter of time before Kup returned. I expect Scourge to show up eventually as well.

Dominic wrote:As it is, IDW un-killed 2 characters.

They've done more that with more than just 2 characters. But Thundercracker I don't believe was ever intended to be killed off, seeing as the comic was intentionally vague about what happened when Skywarp shot him, by not showing anything on the page at all.

The irony here is that I am probably the biggest fan of McCarthy and Costa on this board, and I am calling out the back-writing that happened between their two runs on the franchise. Any sensible person reading AHM (and not assuming the worst cliches of comics) would assume that Sunstreaker and Thundercracker were fucking dead.

Both of them were back-written to have survived by Costa.


But, like I said, I forgave IDW and Costa in both cases, because there was a good reason for bringing back Sunstreaker and Thundercracker (even if nothing came of Sunstreaker's return). As much as I liked the result of Thundercracker coming back, I knew that it set a precedent for dead characters to come back through back-writing.


Kup returning is not likely to make or break it for me. But, I will not be happy. Similarly, Scourge's fate was never shown. And, there are hundreds of guys who look like him, so his fate is anybody's guess.

I do not want any of the guys who have been definitively killed off to come back though. If IDW wants to push the Seekers, they should do so using the surviving loyalists (uh, Skywarp and Acid Storm) and maybe a few new characters.

I do not want to read "Transformers" (or any) comics where the yearly event become a reset point that effectively undoes previous comics. For the most part, "Transformers" has not done that. As bad as "Chaos" was, it did not undo anything. And, as bad as it was, I want it (and the character deaths) to stick.

I am not reading any iteration of G1 because it is what I had as a kid. I am reading it because of what it has done since I was a kid. "Transformers" always felt like an ongoing story, even when it jumped license holders.

By the early 90s, I could see that Marvel and DC normally backed off of big changes. (Much of Byrne's run on "Avengers" was undone before I had left high school. Massive resets like "Crisis" (where the big changes mostly stuck) were the exception. Characters like Bucky, Mar-Vell, Jason Todd, Gwen Stacy, Barry Allen and precious few others were exceptions (and some of them are no longer exceptional). DC had functionally brought back Supergirl by then. (And, no, I do not want to hear meta-arguements about how it really was not Supergirl, it was actually a snot monster from another dimension or somesuch. The point is that DC had a Supergirl on page.)

When talking about something that happened in a TF comic, it was rarely (if ever) necessary to say "and then ####### happened, even though it has been undone or revealed to have not actually happened" (along with all of the dipping around and "but this" qualifications that make sensible people wonder why anybody reads comics). In contrast, Marvel undid "Galactic Storm"....for whatever reason. DC has been pretty good about letting things stick since "Flashpoint". But, it has only been just over two years. (And, DC is very much undefined.)


I do not want the modern TF comics to go any further down the road to becoming like the big 2's comics than modern TF comics already have.

Dominic wrote:The irony here is that I am probably the biggest fan of McCarthy and Costa on this board, and I am calling out the back-writing that happened between their two runs on the franchise. Any sensible person reading AHM (and not assuming the worst cliches of comics) would assume that Sunstreaker and Thundercracker were fucking dead.

I can see saying that for Sunstreaker, given he was standing on the "only" bridge to the Autobots, which he then blew up by shooting the bomb which is clearly shown only a few feet away. But any sensible person reading Thundercracker's exit wouldn't. That scene shows nothing but a close up of Skywarp's gun firing. That's a pretty clear indication of a character not being dead when they don't show anything, especially in comics.

DC has been pretty good about letting things stick since "Flashpoint". But, it has only been just over two years. (And, DC is very much undefined.)

This coming from the guy who said the Rainbow Corps wouldn't be around a year after they introduced it... How many years ago was that at this point? And planning on launching a Sinestro Corps book I might add...

Got caught up last night finally. So Dark Cybertron #1... um... yeah, that was a huge waste of time. Shockwave's big plan is... Metrotitan and Nova Prime and Galvatron. Yawn. Seriously, why am I supposed to care about all this buildup to "Dark Cybertron" and the reign of Starscream over Iacon and Shockwave's big plan with the ores and Soundwave's boring-as-hell 2 issues yammering with Shockwave and Jhiaxus? There was nothing here, just another big bad nuthin' threat - a zombie version of Metrotitan - and a couple characters whose pasts didn't matter to me enough to be all "gasp, how did they appear?!?". 2 more robots on Cybertron? No shit. And the story is really a fizzle, the Lost Light appears out of nowhere to deus its machina and add nothing of value to the moment.

I also loathed the artwork in this issue, the prologue artwork looked worse than fan art, it reminded me greatly of the art in some of the lesser Botcon comics; and the main story art looked shallow and a little blimpy. They also went way off character models for Cyclonus and Rodimus to the point of distraction.

andersonh1 wrote:I enjoyed this book, and enjoyed seeing the scattered groups of characters coming back together, but if there's one thing Dark Cybertron makes clear it's that the dead serious tone of RID and the comic banter of MTMTE just don't mix. I don't pay that much attention to the dichotomy since the two books have been separate for two years, but now that they're going to be mixing it up, it's an issue. I can't see the RID cast yukking it up, so here's hoping things get a little more serious in MTMTE, or it's just going to be annoying.

I didn't get the sense that MTMTE was representing in this issue, it felt more like a pastiche of MTMTE, a cheap copy using only the most basic of beats and missing the more serious personal undertones within it. The Lost Light can be a very serious place at times, especially facing crises, yet here there was no sense of that whatsoever. I think if that's how they're going to run it, it's going to be a tragic misfire, and it doesn't have to be, they can coexist.

So Galvatron and Nova Prime are still alive, or at the very least, undead. Given how linked they are with the Dead Universe, this isn't much of a stretch, so it doesn't really bother me. How will Cyclonus react, I wonder? I need to go back and re-read the last appearance of both and decide if this is plausible or not. I think Galvatron disappeared during Chaos, and I seem to remember Optimus Prime defeating Nova at the end of Revelation, though I can't remember exactly how that fight went down. Has Nova turned up since then? Still, it looks like there's still some mileage to be had from the Dead Universe plotlines. I still enjoy the fact that all of this goes back to Spotlight Shockwave and his plan to seed energon on various planets in preparation for the future. Though I seem to remember Galvatron alone deciding to plunge the ship into the Dead Universe and feeling some regret about that decision, not Nova Prime ordering it, so there's a bit of a retcon here.

As someone who didn't read those earlier comics, having the little preview explaining this meant exactly nothing to me. Nova Prime stopped carrying story weight about half a year ago in RID, and Galvatron has never carried weight for me except for Mister "Not a Decepticon". So all this stuff being thrown at a newer reader like myself really felt out of place and flat. The Dead Universe still has not properly been explained to me from the writers either, and that's a huge problem going into this since that's where Orion Pax is taking the Lost Light.

Dominic wrote:On a more practical note, I am thinking it might be best for us to informally suspend the threads for "Robots in Disguise" and "More than Meets the Eye", as both books are going to be part of "Dark Cybertron" for the rest of the year. And, more fundamentally, Roberts and Barber will be co-writing both books for the duration of "Dark Cybertron", effectively making them the same book.

I dunno, there will be tonal differences, and at the very least it looks like MTMTE will be continuing Syndromica, a storyline that rarely seemed to interset with RID. Let's at least wait and see how MTMTE 23 looks first.

On a related note, apparently "Dark Cybertron" is going to be the return of Kup. Not sure how I feel about this. It has been 3 years. Do we really need to bring Kup back for an abandoned story angle? (And, there is no other reason to bring him back beyond "we have to bring back Kup because he is an old character".)

I assume they're returning Kup, seeing as he's on the cover. Then again, yeah, don't really care about Kup enough to warrant passion in either direction.

Spoiler

This coming from the guy who said the Rainbow Corps wouldn't be around a year after they introduced it... How many years ago was that at this point? And planning on launching a Sinestro Corps book I might add...

I admit, that suprises me.

here was nothing here, just another big bad nuthin' threat - a zombie version of Metrotitan - and a couple characters whose pasts didn't matter to me enough to be all "gasp, how did they appear?!?". 2 more robots on Cybertron? No shit. And the story is really a fizzle, the Lost Light appears out of nowhere to deus its machina and add nothing of value to the moment.

But any sensible person reading Thundercracker's exit wouldn't. That scene shows nothing but a close up of Skywarp's gun firing. That's a pretty clear indication of a character not being dead when they don't show anything, especially in comics.

That sort of "assume the cliche" writing is relatively new to TF comics though. And, I would never say it is okay, even though it is common.


I have yet to read this. But, Metrotitans (names and otherwise) have been established as a big deal for IDW. And, this is only the first issue. Similarly, the annuals established Nova and co as important.


Having characters "suddenly show up for some reason" is standard for a comic book event. It is not encouraging though.

"Dark Cybertron" needs to be proven necessary for the franchise in some way given how it is derailing two books that were to all appearances chugging along just fine on their own. "More than Meets the Eye" had characters doing stuff, which kept some fans happy. "Robots in Disguise" had the "war is over" and political themes to keep other fans happy.

We cannot even blame editorial for "Dark Cybertron". New toy-based character models showing up in the comics could be done in any story. Roberts and Barber are functionally editorial for TF.

From what I am reading, it sounds like "Dark Cybertron" is a forced event. But, we will have to see how it plays out to be certain.

They also went way off character models for Cyclonus and Rodimus to the point of distraction.

Who drew the pages in question?

Given that Rodimus and Cyclonus have been drawn in a heavily stylized way for nearly two years, I can see how a new artist would have trouble drawing them in a more "standard" way.

The Dead Universe still has not properly been explained to me from the writers either, and that's a huge problem going into this since that's where Orion Pax is taking the Lost Light.

The Dead Universe seems to be getting the same treatment that "All Hail Megatron" did, specifically feckless editing. IDW was at best unclear about where/how "All Hail Megatron" fit in. (My impressioin was that they did not even know themselves initially, and were rebranding/editing a story that was never meant to fit in. But, that is speculation.) The same thing seems to be happening with the Dead Universe, most notably with D-Void, who IDW has said may or may not even exist beyond Galvatron's delusions.

My impression is that IDW is trying to tie off an old plot thread through back-writing.

I assume they're returning Kup, seeing as he's on the cover. Then again, yeah, don't really care about Kup enough to warrant passion in either direction.

I am more divided than indifferent. On the one hand, it sort of makes sense to bring Kup back, given that this story involves the dead universe. On the other hand, I cannot help but see bringing him back as just a step backwards for the sake of bringing back a popular character. But, again, it really depends on what IDW does with Kup after they bring him back.

For example, if it ties in with what RiD was setting up for with Prowl, I will be (much) more okay with it than if they just bring Kup back for the sake of having him back.



The best way to read an event comic like this is to try to see what it will do to the status quo of the relevant titles *after* it ends. The destination is usually much more important than the ride with this sort of book.

For example, in "Infinite Crisis", the last issue had lines of dialogue about what hand changed. That was the important part. In "Flashpoint", the most important part is where history is altered, and the effects are shown. I get the feeling that "Dark Cybertron" is going to be using that model.

Dominic wrote:That sort of "assume the cliche" writing is relatively new to TF comics though. And, I would never say it is okay, even though it is common.

What are you talking about? That sort of cliche writing is hardly anywhere close to being new to Transformers comics.

Dominic wrote:I have yet to read this. But, Metrotitans (names and otherwise) have been established as a big deal for IDW. And, this is only the first issue. Similarly, the annuals established Nova and co as important.

The annuals establish those guys as important PAST figures, but not particularly weighty upon the present.

As for the Metrotitan thing, I mean Metrotitan the Zone character, an evil Metroplex - it's lazy there and it's lazy here, especially since this is a zombie titan which is double-lazy.

That sort of "assume the cliche" writing is relatively new to TF comics though. And, I would never say it is okay, even though it is common.

Agreed, this IDW line has felt almost immune to it, which has been part of why it's so good to read.

Having characters "suddenly show up for some reason" is standard for a comic book event. It is not encouraging though.

I'm not new, I know this. It's just the first IDW TF event in a line I've been following and up until now these 2 lines felt far more mature than that crap.

From what I am reading, it sounds like "Dark Cybertron" is a forced event. But, we will have to see how it plays out to be certain.

There's no question it's a forced event. Nothing about it has felt organic yet, which is why RID has had to basically stop its story dead in its tracks to set it up. But maybe they'll pull out of the nosedive.

They also went way off character models for Cyclonus and Rodimus to the point of distraction.

Who drew the pages in question?

Phil Jimenez did the layout and Andrew Griffith did the finished art for the segments in question (Brendan Cahill did the prologue art which is a different ball of wax altogether that I already covered).

Given that Rodimus and Cyclonus have been drawn in a heavily stylized way for nearly two years, I can see how a new artist would have trouble drawing them in a more "standard" way.

I look forward to your thoughts once you read it.

I assume they're returning Kup, seeing as he's on the cover. Then again, yeah, don't really care about Kup enough to warrant passion in either direction.

I am more divided than indifferent. On the one hand, it sort of makes sense to bring Kup back, given that this story involves the dead universe. On the other hand, I cannot help but see bringing him back as just a step backwards for the sake of bringing back a popular character. But, again, it really depends on what IDW does with Kup after they bring him back.

For example, if it ties in with what RiD was setting up for with Prowl, I will be (much) more okay with it than if they just bring Kup back for the sake of having him back.

I dunno why I said he was on the cover, that's not right. I thought I saw him in key cover art somewhere, but now I am questioning where that notion came from.

The best way to read an event comic like this is to try to see what it will do to the status quo of the relevant titles *after* it ends. The destination is usually much more important than the ride with this sort of book.

For example, in "Infinite Crisis", the last issue had lines of dialogue about what hand changed. That was the important part. In "Flashpoint", the most important part is where history is altered, and the effects are shown. I get the feeling that "Dark Cybertron" is going to be using that model.

I am hoping that's not the case, both titles were already on interesting paths before this, I'd rather this just be a bump in the road and they get back to interesting ideas with interesting characters in interesting situations. RID was already in a rebuilding phase, now those ideas are getting ready to get flushed for what comes afterwards.

Dominic wrote:The best way to read an event comic like this is to try to see what it will do to the status quo of the relevant titles *after* it ends. The destination is usually much more important than the ride with this sort of book.

Stories should NEVER be read from this perspective. They should be read as stories on their own for their own merits. If this really is how people approach event driven stories then it's a real wonder to me why we still have comics at all and an even bigger wonder why the comic fandom puts up with this continual crap when the oh so important outcome doesn't even stick 90% of the time.

Also, we all knew when Kup went into the DU that he would be coming back at some point, strictly for the reason that he wasn't actually dead. And I'm wondering why it's called the Dead Universe when every damned thing that goes in there winds up coming back perfectly alive and well anyway. I also don't see how this story is going to resurrect anyone who isn't on Cybertron. Thrust, Ramjet and Scrapper died on Earth and I didn't see the Decepticons carrying corpses with them when they left. At worst, I could see Ore 14 getting wide use on Cybertron which could result in some characters returning, but I honestly think more characters are going to wind up dead before that happens.