The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

[SynjoDeonecros]

Except TFs have always been like this, and they're too busy trying to colonize other worlds or take care of intradimensional timetravelling crazy guys named Gigatron to worry about what Soundwave did on a Thursday in 1985.

Also, there's no real indication that the Predacons even want to stir up trouble again--at least not on Megatron's kind of scale. Megs is a crazy heretic and Tripredacus wants to shut him up--true, it's so they can do their *own* uprising, but theirs is much more subtle and probably doesn't require any information about G1 anyway.

Besides, it was always my impression that the Predacons had split off from the Maximals--they are only 'spiritually' the descendents of the Decepticons, and not literally, as the Maximals are the Autobots.

It was my impression that the Predacons were of two minds about their lot in life: they all want to uprise, but half of them want to build up their resources so they'd have the advantage when they DO uprise, and the other half want to bash brains and overthrow the Maximals right then and there. So, either way, they WILL uprise, and reading up on the past Great War and studying the battle strategies implemented during that time so they can uprise effectively would be prudent.

AGAIN, I am NOT saying that they need to give a PERFECT account of EVERY detail of the Great War, please stop assuming I am. What I AM saying, is that, with the existence of all these Great War survivors to explain a lot of the misconceptions of the Great War, knowledge about that time should NOT be as vague and wispy as it is. Seriously, how could they remember the battle between the Ark and the Nemesis but forget the boarding of the Ark by the Decepticons, especially after they CLEARLY SEE in "The Agenda" the Decepticons in there? It's stupid. That shouldn't happen. I can accept that the Maximal Elders were trying to prevent another Great War by sealing up the records; I can accept that the writers tried to keep the continuity loose and vague to protect themselves from any backlash due to discontinuity; but I CANNOT accept that that ignorance was so all-consuming, so total, that not only do the mere existence of all those Great War survivors do NOTHING to impact it, but the fact the Predacons aren't apparently kept to the same "no looking into the past" standards that the Maximals are - and, thus, have full access to the records that the Maximal Elders sealed up to prevent an uprising from them in the first place - makes no difference, either. That is bull, in my opinion.

[BWprowl]

AGAIN, I am NOT saying that they need to give a PERFECT account of EVERY detail of the Great War, please stop assuming I am. What I AM saying, is that, with the existence of all these Great War survivors to explain a lot of the misconceptions of the Great War, knowledge about that time should NOT be as vague and wispy as it is. Seriously, how could they remember the battle between the Ark and the Nemesis but forget the boarding of the Ark by the Decepticons, especially after they CLEARLY SEE in "The Agenda" the Decepticons in there? It's stupid. That shouldn't happen.

It's not like there were 'all these survivors' from the Great War. There's like ten G1 guys running around an ENTIRE PLANET. How many of the BW crew do you think had a chance to actually talk with Rodimus or The Veteran and get any misconceptions straightened out? Especially since the implication is that the G1 guys are laying low.

As for the Ark thing, do any of the BW guys flat out say "The Decepticons never boarded the Ark"? No, they just kinda offhandedly recall that the ships were in a fight, and crash. Notice that they aren't at all *surprised* that there's a buncha Decepticons lying around the Ark? I'd say they knew they were supposed to be there. Hell, Megatron knew that that's where his predecessor was. So yeah, they clearly knew that the Decepticons boarded the Ark, they just didn't mention it because they didn't feel like wasting too much time on an offhand recollection and (here's a thought) they knew that they all knew that already, so they didn't need to mention it.

[SynjoDeonecros]

AGAIN, I am NOT saying that they need to give a PERFECT account of EVERY detail of the Great War, please stop assuming I am. What I AM saying, is that, with the existence of all these Great War survivors to explain a lot of the misconceptions of the Great War, knowledge about that time should NOT be as vague and wispy as it is. Seriously, how could they remember the battle between the Ark and the Nemesis but forget the boarding of the Ark by the Decepticons, especially after they CLEARLY SEE in "The Agenda" the Decepticons in there? It's stupid. That shouldn't happen.

It's not like there were 'all these survivors' from the Great War. There's like ten G1 guys running around an ENTIRE PLANET. How many of the BW crew do you think had a chance to actually talk with Rodimus or The Veteran and get any misconceptions straightened out? Especially since the implication is that the G1 guys are laying low.

As for the Ark thing, do any of the BW guys flat out say "The Decepticons never boarded the Ark"? No, they just kinda offhandedly recall that the ships were in a fight, and crash. Notice that they aren't at all *surprised* that there's a buncha Decepticons lying around the Ark? I'd say they knew they were supposed to be there. Hell, Megatron knew that that's where his predecessor was. So yeah, they clearly knew that the Decepticons boarded the Ark, they just didn't mention it because they didn't feel like wasting too much time on an offhand recollection and (here's a thought) they knew that they all knew that already, so they didn't need to mention it.

What implication? I never got that impression from that show AT ALL, ESPECIALLY when Ravage showed up. Yes, they mentioned that the remaining Decepticons retired, but that didn't give me the impression that they were in hiding.

And if they "already knew" about the Decepticons in the Ark, just like they "already knew" about the Ark/Nemesis battle, then why the hell did Optimus and Blackarachnia feel the need to clarify that there WAS a war? In case you hadn't noticed, there WERE a few members of their team that were new and lost their memories of their pre-BW selves, so when they saw the Ark, it would be logical for THEM to be all mystified over what was going on; in other words, for THEM, I can understand the need to clarify that there WAS a battle between the two ships, but I don't get why they left the part of the Decepticons boarding out. And not only that, but despite their apparent "knowledge" of the incident, the other Transformers are JUST AS MYSTIFIED as their comrades when they encounter the Ark. Yeah, I know it would be like an X-Files fanatic finally getting to meet Gillian Anderson, but every single frame is them going "OH! I thought that was a MYTH!"

*shakes head* I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced in the SLIGHTEST. They tried to make the Great War nebulous and vague, and they failed when they brought in proof that there WERE experts AND eyewitnesses out there that can bring more insight to those events. That's the bottom line. Had they NOT established that there WERE survivors of the Great War to give more info about the War, I would've been more accepting to believe that the Transformer population knew less than they probably should've; as I said, I understand the reasons for the Maximal Elders to seal up those records and maintain the ban against contact with Earth - while I would still complain about why they didn't mandate that same restriction for the Predacons when they were establishing peace terms, just the simple fact that that knowledge was restricted at ALL would make the general populace being ignorant of their past more believable. Even the appearance of Starscream wouldn't have made much difference, as he himself said he was "tumbling through time and space" as a disembodied spark, and probably had no knowledge of his people's descendants. But they had to go and screw that up with the appearance of Ravage. Why? Because before, they gave the impression that there were NO survivors of the Great War, that the entire Transformer population now were this new generation of Maximals and Predacons, and the old generation of Autobots and Decepticons were either offline and rusting in a hole somewhere, or reformatted and mindwiped. It gave the impression that the ONLY source of info about the Great War for the new population of Transformers were either anecdotal accounts riddled with errors or those same files that the Maximal Elders confiscated and locked away, and if they had kept it at THAT, I wouldn't have much of a problem. But with Ravage's appearance, and Optimus clearly stating that there WERE still survivors of the Great War living on Cybertron during their time (remember, he only stated that the rumors said only one of them was reformatted as a Predacon; he stated the amnesty of the remaining Decepticons part as if it were established fact), that illusion is shattered, because now we KNOW there's another source of information about the Great War than old textbook war stories and archaic records locked up by some government conspiracy; they have several firsthand, eyewitness accounts to those events, and regardless of their reasons for not spilling the beans, the fact remains is that they EXIST and CAN give that information, if need be. So this whole ignorance thing has been proven to be BS, and that pisses me off. It destroys the suspension of disbelief that the writers was going for, with this, and it ruins the wonder that they obviously wanted us to feel with the Maximals and Predacons upon seeing the Ark and Optimus Prime and the other Autobots and Decepticons. If they wanted to maintain that sense of wonder and that suspension of disbelief - and I can't believe I'm saying this - they shouldn't have used Ravage in "The Agenda". His presence just rips open a huge hole in the masquerade that the writers were so desperate to maintain.

[BWprowl]

What implication? I never got that impression from that show AT ALL, ESPECIALLY when Ravage showed up. Yes, they mentioned that the remaining Decepticons retired, but that didn't give me the impression that they were in hiding.

Well, Rodimus joined the Wreckers, an under-the-radar black ops group. Arcee went into hiding because Daniel died. Swoop had remained out of contact so thoroughly for so long that no one even knew his name anymore. Ravage was a covert ops agent whose origins were so secret that only Primal had heard rumors about him. So yeah, they weren't exactly standing out in the street with huge neon signs that said "FREE INFORMATION ABOUT THE GREAT WAR HERE!!"

In case you hadn't noticed, there WERE a few members of their team that were new and lost their memories of their pre-BW selves, so when they saw the Ark, it would be logical for THEM to be all mystified over what was going on; in other words, for THEM, I can understand the need to clarify that there WAS a battle between the two ships, but I don't get why they left the part of the Decepticons boarding out.

Oh, that was off-camera. Silverbolt says "Hey, what're all these Decepticons doing on this Autobot ship?" and Blackarachnica goes "Oh, they boarded it during the conflict."

Prove me wrong. Seriously.

And not only that, but despite their apparent "knowledge" of the incident, the other Transformers are JUST AS MYSTIFIED as their comrades when they encounter the Ark. Yeah, I know it would be like an X-Files fanatic finally getting to meet Gillian Anderson, but every single frame is them going "OH! I thought that was a MYTH!"

Okay, I'ma have to rewatch The Agenda tonight, since it's been a while, but I don't really remember all of them being in shocked awe for ten minutes denying the Ark's existence. At least I'll have synergy, since I was also going to finish watching G1 tonight.

*shakes head* I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced in the SLIGHTEST. They tried to make the Great War nebulous and vague, and they failed when they brought in proof that there WERE experts AND eyewitnesses out there that can bring more insight to those events. That's the bottom line. Had they NOT established that there WERE survivors of the Great War to give more info about the War, I would've been more accepting to believe that the Transformer population knew less than they probably should've; as I said, I understand the reasons for the Maximal Elders to seal up those records and maintain the ban against contact with Earth - while I would still complain about why they didn't mandate that same restriction for the Predacons when they were establishing peace terms, just the simple fact that that knowledge was restricted at ALL would make the general populace being ignorant of their past more believable. Even the appearance of Starscream wouldn't have made much difference, as he himself said he was "tumbling through time and space" as a disembodied spark, and probably had no knowledge of his people's descendants. But they had to go and screw that up with the appearance of Ravage. Why? Because before, they gave the impression that there were NO survivors of the Great War, that the entire Transformer population now were this new generation of Maximals and Predacons, and the old generation of Autobots and Decepticons were either offline and rusting in a hole somewhere, or reformatted and mindwiped. It gave the impression that the ONLY source of info about the Great War for the new population of Transformers were either anecdotal accounts riddled with errors or those same files that the Maximal Elders confiscated and locked away, and if they had kept it at THAT, I wouldn't have much of a problem. But with Ravage's appearance, and Optimus clearly stating that there WERE still survivors of the Great War living on Cybertron during their time (remember, he only stated that the rumors said only one of them was reformatted as a Predacon; he stated the amnesty of the remaining Decepticons part as if it were established fact), that illusion is shattered, because now we KNOW there's another source of information about the Great War than old textbook war stories and archaic records locked up by some government conspiracy; they have several firsthand, eyewitness accounts to those events, and regardless of their reasons for not spilling the beans, the fact remains is that they EXIST and CAN give that information, if need be. So this whole ignorance thing has been proven to be BS, and that pisses me off. It destroys the suspension of disbelief that the writers was going for, with this, and it ruins the wonder that they obviously wanted us to feel with the Maximals and Predacons upon seeing the Ark and Optimus Prime and the other Autobots and Decepticons. If they wanted to maintain that sense of wonder and that suspension of disbelief - and I can't believe I'm saying this - they shouldn't have used Ravage in "The Agenda". His presence just rips open a huge hole in the masquerade that the writers were so desperate to maintain.

Too long, read anyway. Honestly, I get the impression that you're *way* too hung up on this, and no amount of good points from any of us is going to convince you otherwise.

[SynjoDeonecros]

It's just one of those things that struck me one day as odd, and the more I thought about it, the more it started nagging at me, like it was a serious screwup that should've been fixed but never was.

You're also forgetting Buzzsaw and Laserbeak, the original Predacons (the FOUNDERS of the Predacon faction), Grimlock (Maximalized), G1 Prowl, Ironhide, and Silverbolt (though I discount those, as they're part of the Maximal Council and, thus, would have helped them seal the records)...must I go on? I'm sure we would've seen several other Autobots and Decepticons introduced in the Beast Wars timeline, had the comics not been canceled. There are potentially SEVERAL survivors of the original Great War floating around that could give a better insight into the war, and it doesn't matter if they WOULD; the simple fact that they EXIST and they COULD if need be seals the deal, for me. A war vet may not be willing to talk about his experiences in the war, but the fact that he exists means that his knowledge IS available, and if he is pushed hard enough, he CAN reveal it. That's the gist of it: we're supposed to believe that there WERE NO SURVIVORS OF THE GREAT WAR to provide commentary on it, and thus - with the remaining evidence of it sealed up by the Maximal Elders - knowledge of the event was scarce and inaccurate, at best. Why do you think BW took place CENTURIES after the Great War ended? I'm sorry, but my stance stays firm: the information is there, they didn't have to be as ignorant of their past as we're led to believe they were, and being asked to ignore all that to keep the suspension of disbelief is insulting. I'm not looking at this as a "would they WANT to" standpoint, I'm looking at this as a "are they ABLE to" standpoint, and all evidence points to YES, THEY ARE. I understand why they WOULDN'T want to, I understand why the Maximals sealed up the records, I honestly do, but when push comes to shove, and they're brought to give testimony, would they they be ABLE to, and the simple answer is that they WOULD.

On top of all of that, there's still the idiotic discontinuity between the fact that the Maximals have sealed up all THEIR records of the Great War from THEIR citizens, but the PREDACONS DON'T. Again, I understand why the Maximal Elders want those records to be sealed up; so that history can't repeat itself by having the records inspire another uprising and subsequent Great War Quartex or something. But it's the PREDACONS that they are worried will rebel against them if they get their hands on these records, so why are they limiting access to them to JUST THE MAXIMALS? You'd think that would be the first thing written in the Pax Cybertronia: "No Transformer, Autobot or Decepticon, Maximal or Predacon, may access any information on the Great War, including documentation of said war or visiting worlds associated with the Great War outside of Cybertron". It's a huge discontinuity that also ruins the whole "Maximals and Predacons know jack about their history beyond the bare basics", as it takes a legitimate reason for having it be like that, and inconsistently applies it to the characters. Why can the Predacons access those files but not the Maximals? If the Maximal Elders are so concerned about this information inspiring another Great War, why bar their OWN CITIZENS from accessing it, but not your ENEMIES? So not only is this information available to anyone who decides to pursue it, to hell with what the Government says, but even if we believe that the Government CAN hush it all up completely, they're hushing it up from the wrong faction, meaning it can STILL be accessed by the general public, just through an underground. Would it be risky? Your bet your skidplate it would be, but depending on the situation, it could be worth it, and I'd imagine some of the more adventurous and scholarly Maximals might take the chance. It's not like we haven't seen both factions making deals and sharing information with each other before.

[Mako Crab]

I'm sure we would've seen several other Autobots and Decepticons introduced in the Beast Wars timeline, had the comics not been canceled. There are potentially SEVERAL survivors of the original Great War floating around that could give a better insight into the war, and it doesn't matter if they WOULD; the simple fact that they EXIST and they COULD if need be seals the deal, for me.

Ick, did you read those comics? Biggest waste of ink and paper ever. I'm glad they cancelled it, as it was obvious IDW didn't have any faith or interest in the project.

Synjo, you have to keep in mind that even within the context of G1 everything is vague and misinterpreted. The Constructicons built Megatron. No, Megatron built the Constructicons on Earth. No, they were neutrals reprogrammed by Megatron on Cybertron! The Dinobots were built by Wheeljack and Ratchet in 1984 and are dumb as bricks. No, they've been around for millions of years and are superb tacticians that came to earth in prehistoric times. It's Skyfire. No, it's Jetfire. Or both. Before he was Prime he was Orion Pax. No, he was Optronix. Unicron appears in 2005 unless it's 2006. The list goes on and on.

So much of what we consider to be G1 is constantly being changed. And even when it was just a cartoon, the Marvel comics, and tech specs, there were still a ton of things that simply didn't jive together. And it's not like having any of the G1 cast around at the time helped explain it any better. And seeing how BW borrowed a little from the G1 cartoon and a little from the G1 comics, can you blame them for keeping it simple and vague? How they hell are they supposed to sort all that crap out? And as for everyone being in awe at discovering the Ark, the Nemesis, etc.- dude, for real? That'd be like suddenly discovering Amelia Earhart's lost plane.

Person: "It's Earhart's plane!"
Person 2: "Wow! I've only heard legends. . . "
Person 1: "No legend. This is the real deal."

Or maybe a better analogy would be finding Noah's Ark. Either way, being in awe and referring to something as a legend doesn't mean they didn't know what they were talking about or that they thought it really was a myth that never actually happened. But can you tell me when Amelia Earhart went missing right this moment without looking it up? Most people proabably can't. That information is documented and readily available to anyone that wants it. Are we to expect that everyone knows it though? So Silverbolt not knowing the exact Earth year the 'bots and 'cons came back online is understandable.

As for information about the Great War being classified- all we know is that the files on Starscream were classified and Earth was put off limits. The Maximals may have reason to classify those files, but again- Maximal and Predacon cultures are separate entities. The Predacons may not see any reason to keep that information confidential.
And if you follow the comics, Earth got pretty much nuked to hell by Jhiaxus. Seeing how their war nearly wiped out an entire planet full of life, can you honestly blame the Maximals for relegating Earth off limits?

[SynjoDeonecros]

I'm sure we would've seen several other Autobots and Decepticons introduced in the Beast Wars timeline, had the comics not been canceled. There are potentially SEVERAL survivors of the original Great War floating around that could give a better insight into the war, and it doesn't matter if they WOULD; the simple fact that they EXIST and they COULD if need be seals the deal, for me.

Ick, did you read those comics? Biggest waste of ink and paper ever. I'm glad they cancelled it, as it was obvious IDW didn't have any faith or interest in the project.

Synjo, you have to keep in mind that even within the context of G1 everything is vague and misinterpreted. The Constructicons built Megatron. No, Megatron built the Constructicons on Earth. No, they were neutrals reprogrammed by Megatron on Cybertron! The Dinobots were built by Wheeljack and Ratchet in 1984 and are dumb as bricks. No, they've been around for millions of years and are superb tacticians that came to earth in prehistoric times. It's Skyfire. No, it's Jetfire. Or both. Before he was Prime he was Orion Pax. No, he was Optronix. Unicron appears in 2005 unless it's 2006. The list goes on and on.

So much of what we consider to be G1 is constantly being changed. And even when it was just a cartoon, the Marvel comics, and tech specs, there were still a ton of things that simply didn't jive together. And it's not like having any of the G1 cast around at the time helped explain it any better. And seeing how BW borrowed a little from the G1 cartoon and a little from the G1 comics, can you blame them for keeping it simple and vague? How they hell are they supposed to sort all that crap out? And as for everyone being in awe at discovering the Ark, the Nemesis, etc.- dude, for real? That'd be like suddenly discovering Amelia Earhart's lost plane.

Person: "It's Earhart's plane!"
Person 2: "Wow! I've only heard legends. . . "
Person 1: "No legend. This is the real deal."

Or maybe a better analogy would be finding Noah's Ark. Either way, being in awe and referring to something as a legend doesn't mean they didn't know what they were talking about or that they thought it really was a myth that never actually happened. But can you tell me when Amelia Earhart went missing right this moment without looking it up? Most people proabably can't. That information is documented and readily available to anyone that wants it. Are we to expect that everyone knows it though? So Silverbolt not knowing the exact Earth year the 'bots and 'cons came back online is understandable.

As for information about the Great War being classified- all we know is that the files on Starscream were classified and Earth was put off limits. The Maximals may have reason to classify those files, but again- Maximal and Predacon cultures are separate entities. The Predacons may not see any reason to keep that information confidential.
And if you follow the comics, Earth got pretty much nuked to hell by Jhiaxus. Seeing how their war nearly wiped out an entire planet full of life, can you honestly blame the Maximals for relegating Earth off limits?

A reason to seal Starscream's files, yes, they do have a legitimate reason (though why the PREDACONS can gain a hold of it is anyone's guess), but no official reason given for the ban on Earth. Besides, the way that the characters talk about the bans and file-sealing seems to indicate that they're keeping a very tight grip on ALL the info on the Great War they can get their mitts on. And again, nothing in the cartoon or the comics that I've been able to research indicate that G2 was included in the BW continuity other than the whole Swarm/Vok thing, and that's only peripherally canon. The only parts of TF canon that seems to be canon in BW are the original Marvel Comics and/or the original G1 cartoon. I'll concede that how much of either is canon is still in dispute, but again, THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE. With the survivors proven to exist, stories could be written about their transition to BW that canonizes whatever parts of the comic and cartoon they want. Just the EXISTENCE of these characters means the possibility of a solid canon past for BW can be established. That's my entire argument: the mere existence of these survivors and the fact that the Predacons have less restricted access to the Great War files than the Maximals do means all of these continuity issues with the G1 series could be resolved, IF the writers weren't so focused on keeping said continuity issues as vague as possible so they WON'T have to worry about them.

Look, I UNDERSTAND why the Maximals sealed up the records, I UNDERSTAND why the survivors wouldn't want to talk about it, I UNDERSTAND that the G1 continuity is in flux, and the fact that BW borrows aspects of both the G1 cartoon and Marvel Comics to form its backstory, I GET ALL THAT. My contention is that the writers have shown several times that IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT. Again, it's not an issue of "WOULD they", but an Issue of "COULD they"; in other words, if they'd WANT to do this is NOT THE ISSUE HERE, but whether, if they're ABLE to. AND YES, THEY ARE ABLE TO, as they've shown several opportunities to do so during the show's and subsequent comics' runs. In fact, they STILL could, now that they've delved back in the series with the Classics BW toys. Giving all these reasons for why they don't WANT to do it are just a bunch of excuses for laziness on the writers' part; I UNDERSTAND WHY they would give those excuses, but they're still excuses. You want to say that the survivors are too much in hiding to give their testimonies, or they're being kept watch over by the government, then SHOW THAT. Oh, wait, I forgot, the current Timelines and Universe continuities have shown that THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN. So, even now, the writers are cockblocking us out of both a definitive answer to these continuity issues, and/or a definitive answer to why they CAN'T resolve the continuity issues, and are holding on to their precious subjectivity and mysticism for dear life. Great, just great. I'm sorry, but this is one thing I refuse to argue with: they CAN do it, and they're REFUSING to do it to keep the mysticism, and it's BULLCRAP.

[BWprowl]

Okay, just finished watching 'The Agenda' plus 'Optimal Situation', and here's the rundown:

'The Agenda' is fucking awesome. Seriously, I've seen this thing a dozen times, and it still knocks my socks off every time. A real solid piece of work, Bob 'n' Larry.

Now, as for the issues that Synjo's bringing up: The only Maximal who mentions the Ark as a 'legend' is Silverbolt. This is understandable, since he lost all his memories, and he could have easily overheard Rattrap and Rhinox talking about it, and not known exactly what they were talking about. EVERYONE ELSE who stumbles into the volcano seem only a bit taken aback simply by the fact that it's THE FUCKING ARK, but don't seem overly amazed that it exists, or try to deny it as a legend (Cheetor even recognizes it straight off: "Woah! The Ark!"). Hell, Primal had apparently already figured out what Megatron was thinking a few episodes ago, hence his constant attempts to stop Blackarachnia throughout the mini. So yeah, he, Megatron, and Blackarachnia all knew that the Ark was real and what it meant. There's no foggyness, or myth, or speculation on that part. It's all treated as ironclad history that they know.

Synjo, your entire problem with this seems to hinge on the idea that the Maximals and Predacons are completely in the dark about their own history, only knowing 'myths' and 'legends'. But that's...not the case. As I just described, all the guys in the show seem up on their Great War history, some even know who particular characters were (like, say, Shrapnel). The only time records being sealed comes up is in the case of Starscream. And I can see why the Maximal Elders would seal his records: They were attempting experiments on their own kind, presumably using data from his file. If that ever got out, ESPECIALLY among fellow Maximals, they'd be in big trouble. So while they obviously couldn't persuade the Predacons to seal up their records on Starscream, the Elders could at least dissuade their own faction from finding out what unsavory things they were up to.

But anyway, that's it. Starscream aside, the BW characters don't seem especially historically ignorant to me (given the few opportunities they have to show whether or not they are), so you...really shouldn't have any problems.

Calm down man.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Okay, just finished watching 'The Agenda' plus 'Optimal Situation', and here's the rundown:

'The Agenda' is fucking awesome. Seriously, I've seen this thing a dozen times, and it still knocks my socks off every time. A real solid piece of work, Bob 'n' Larry.

Now, as for the issues that Synjo's bringing up: The only Maximal who mentions the Ark as a 'legend' is Silverbolt. This is understandable, since he lost all his memories, and he could have easily overheard Rattrap and Rhinox talking about it, and not known exactly what they were talking about. EVERYONE ELSE who stumbles into the volcano seem only a bit taken aback simply by the fact that it's THE FUCKING ARK, but don't seem overly amazed that it exists, or try to deny it as a legend (Cheetor even recognizes it straight off: "Woah! The Ark!"). Hell, Primal had apparently already figured out what Megatron was thinking a few episodes ago, hence his constant attempts to stop Blackarachnia throughout the mini. So yeah, he, Megatron, and Blackarachnia all knew that the Ark was real and what it meant. There's no foggyness, or myth, or speculation on that part. It's all treated as ironclad history that they know.

Synjo, your entire problem with this seems to hinge on the idea that the Maximals and Predacons are completely in the dark about their own history, only knowing 'myths' and 'legends'. But that's...not the case. As I just described, all the guys in the show seem up on their Great War history, some even know who particular characters were (like, say, Shrapnel). The only time records being sealed comes up is in the case of Starscream. And I can see why the Maximal Elders would seal his records: They were attempting experiments on their own kind, presumably using data from his file. If that ever got out, ESPECIALLY among fellow Maximals, they'd be in big trouble. So while they obviously couldn't persuade the Predacons to seal up their records on Starscream, the Elders could at least dissuade their own faction from finding out what unsavory things they were up to.

But anyway, that's it. Starscream aside, the BW characters don't seem especially historically ignorant to me (given the few opportunities they have to show whether or not they are), so you...really shouldn't have any problems.

Calm down man.

I'm going to have to watch the full show again, because my memory may be fuzzy, but that's not the impression I got. Here's what I've gathered from my research: A) Some if not all of the records of the Great War were sealed up by the Maximal Elders for some reason, most likely to avoid them stirring up another Great War and to hide their experiments with what they've gleaned in those records. B) The Predacons know more about the Great War and the people in it than the Maximals do. C) Almost ALL of our exposition about the Great War and its participants come from the Predacons. What am I supposed to think, with that? Only one thing: the Maximals know jack slag about their history while the Predacons know far more than they should. And the reasons given for why that is make no sense. You see my confusion?

And why CAN'T they persuade the Predacons to seal up their records? Again, if they were so afraid of this stuff getting out, you'd think that would be one of the first things they would force the Predacons to agree to in the Pax Cybertronia, and even though the Predacons have their own vestigial government, that government is overseen by the Maximal Elders, so why COULDN'T they say "We're sealing up these records for the safety of the entire planet, so you must, as well" and enforce that? Allowing the Predacons access to all of these important, sensitive, and potentially dangerously inspiring or defaming information but denying the Maximals that same privilege is not only inconsistent, it's also stupid and defeats the whole purpose of sealing up the records, in the first place; as I said, if the Maximals really wanted to find out what the Government is hiding, they could take a risk and pay off a Predacon researcher to get the information for them.

I dunno, there just seems to be way too much confusion and inconsistency with this for it to settle in my stomach. Maybe I am overanalyzing this, but it still bugs the hell out of me.

[Mako Crab]

I'm going to have to watch the full show again, because my memory may be fuzzy, but that's not the impression I got.

Or at least The Agenda Trilogy.

And why CAN'T they persuade the Predacons to seal up their records?

I don't know. Why can't the U.S. persuade North Korea to stop developing nuclear power?