What needs to be done to improve TF3?

[Dominic]

That's an interesting point; I read an article on this a couple weeks back. See, despite the bad reviews that we and the various critics and movie reviewers are giving this movie, it's still selling tickets like crazy, with the moviegoing public saying that they really like it.

...Maybe *that's* what '86 finds embarrassing about it.

To add a wrinkle to this critical scrotum, (before RotF that word would never have been used in reference to TF), what I find embarrassing are the drooling action fans who see me with a TF shirt or something and try to tell me how "sick" (@w$um) the movie is. Bay has effectively put me in that demographic of movie goer I never wanted to be in.

The high ticket sales are perhaps the greatest justification for tyranny I have seen in a long time.

Give poor Megan Fox a shower so she doesn't look like she's been basted.

Yeah, "basted".

It'd be nice if we see the Autobots actually doing something to save their species, rather than just foiling the Decepticons plans to create an army and hiding out on Earth.

That would involve writing, which Kurtzman and Orci, along with Bay, frankly suck at.

We don't need stuff like humping dogs/robots in the film. Or a close up of Agent Simmon's thong while he explains why he's wearing it.

Here is the the thing, I like rude humour. (Anyone who has ever gotten a voice or text from me can attest to this. I am filthy as hell.) But, I agree with Sparky.

The humping dogs were annoying. The leg humping robot was just obnoxious and pointless. Potty humour in passing is one thing. Using it for idiot laughs in a movie is writing down for more than is acceptable.

The sphincter seven shot was.....awful. Mooning in passing is one thing.


The humping, butt-shots, panty-shots and general crudity of the movie actually under-mine the one real virtue the TF movies had, namely making the franchise approachable. I hated the first movie, but was happy to see the hobby in the main-stream. Now, the fandom looks more like a bunch of over-grown man-children than we actually are.

Normally, I want the hobby and fandom to be open. But, I do not want the trach-comedy and summer-action crapper hour demographic getting involved.


Dom
-likes the idea of crippling Kurtzman and Orci.

[andersonh1]

That would involve writing, which Kurtzman and Orci, along with Bay, frankly suck at.

After ROTF and Star Trek, I'm starting to agree with you Dom. Scratch 'starting', I think I agree full stop. Star Trek has way too many contrivances and plot holes in the storyline to really qualify as a strong piece of writing, and I've already expressed my gripes with ROTF in this thread and the movie review thread. Kurtzman and Orci wrote both and have some good ideas, but they lack simple logic in their storytelling. Not to mention good taste.

I don't think their story and dialogue are unsalvageable, but when there are so many other writers out there, why bother? I'd be all for some new talent on the next movie. Not that it's going to happen, given the success of "Fallen". If they want to work on the sequel, who's going to tell them no?

[Sparky Prime]

That would involve writing, which Kurtzman and Orci, along with Bay, frankly suck at.

A dubious comment considering Kurtzman and Orci seem to be on something of a roll having written some very successful movies over the last few years including (besides the two Transformers) "Star Trek" and "Eagle Eye". Don't get me wrong, I certainly think Transformers (and their version of Star Trek) could have used some more revisions, but I wouldn't say they suck at writing either. Bay on the other hand... I wouldn't let him anywhere near the writers table.

[onslaught86]

I dunno, Sparky, successful =/= good writing. The more I think about ROTF, the more bitter I'm becoming, and that really does make me sad.

Dom nailed it.

I won a season pass for ROTF in a competition with TFNZ, so I'll be seeing it again with newly critical eyes. Hopefully it'll mellow me a little, and I'll try to control the urge to tell everyone I see that the movie was awful and I feel embarassed to be associated with something so crude and poorly executed. Hey guys, let's waste three hours pretending we have a plot, then use it as an excuse for more totally wicked cool action scenes. And this time around, the toyline isn't even that good!

I feel like comic book guy. Gah.

[138 Scourge]

I won a season pass for ROTF in a competition with TFNZ,

That's winning? Good God, what happened to the losers?

Ah, sarcasm and flippancy. So much easier than constructive comments...

[onslaught86]

I also won Preview Bumblebee (Yaaay..), some poster, and an umbrella. The umbrella excites me!

[Onslaught Six]

You can always throw FreePreBee my way. My '07 NewBee is starting to feel a little annoying, with his unscrewed wedge-on handgun, would much prefer PreBee's hand cannon. And NewNewBee just looks shit.

[Sparky Prime]

I dunno, Sparky, successful =/= good writing.

I don't agree. Good writing is going to be more successful than terrible writing. And like I said before, they could do better but they don't suck at writing. Personally, I think a lot of the end product is more the result of the director, not the writers.

[onslaught86]

I don't agree. Good writing is going to be more successful than terrible writing. And like I said before, they could do better but they don't suck at writing. Personally, I think a lot of the end product is more the result of the director, not the writers.

I really WISH I didn't have to disagree on the good writing =/= successful bit, but just look at the oodles of money ROTF is making. Heck, look at every movie Bay has ever directed. He's living proof to the contrary, and the smug bastard is proud of it. If more movies were intelligently written, I'd be grateful for it, and probably see more of them in cinemas. Yet this is moronic action flick territory, genuinely 'is' moronic, and is still blowing box office records. If memory serves, ROTF is one of the biggest divides between the apparent moviegoing public and the critics in cinema history.

Good writing certainly should be more successful than bad, but when it comes to the sort of movie franchise Transformers has become, the writing is largely irrelevant.

I'm certainly exaggerating on the writers' ability or lack thereof, though I will cite Trek as a great example. Star Trek's traditionally a hard scifi, intellectual series, and I'd go so far as to generalise and say that people who like Trek are more likely to be above average intelligence. It's simply not a show that one can sit around and enjoy for the mindless explosions and entrancing action sequences, since it rarely has anything like that, and more regularly challenges the viewer with many an intriguing moral, ethical, or technological dilemma. The new Trek movie, while certainly enjoyable, was still rife with plot holes and poorly thought-out sequences that've raised the ire of a good few Trek fans I know (Although they did praise other elements and the casting's met with nigh-universal acclaim).

It all but disgusts me that there's this sense of pandering to a seeming majority of filmgoers who're mentally lacking, here, yet i think the reality's that they just don't care enough to make it a good movie, it'd require taking resource away from all the important shiny explosive bits. Which are, admittedly, distracting from the plot (Or, again..lack thereof).

Still, point being, given the likes of JJ Abrams at the helm, a fellow who's certainly known for producing quality work, I have to square some of the blame on the writers, and I have yet to see proof that they can write a story that doesn't disappoint on multiple levels. What else have they got in their body of work, here? The Island? The Legend of Zorro? Yeah..

I'll certainly concede that Bay owns a lot of the faults here, at the end of the day the director is responsible for directing the film, and he was clearly happy having the plot taper off into the ether for the sake of awwwwwesome action scenes and totally radical back-patting thanks to Prime and the military. Don't forget, kids, your ticket stubs can be used to enlist! Redeem them now for a free firearm!

Yes, I'm very jaded now. Can't you tell?

You can always throw FreePreBee my way. My '07 NewBee is starting to feel a little annoying, with his unscrewed wedge-on handgun, would much prefer PreBee's hand cannon. And NewNewBee just looks shit.

Nah, I'm keeping PreBee. Completist, yo'. His cannon arm looks pretty awful, honestly, no idea why you'd want that. NewBee's gun sucks, to be sure, but it's better than the clearly tacked-on cannon arm. CannonBee i actually like, it's just the windows keeping me away. I'll bite when the translucent variant makes it here. Let it be known that o86 approves highly of gimmicks that work in both modes, especially with the more boring movie vehicle modes.

[Sparky Prime]

I really WISH I didn't have to disagree on the good writing =/= successful bit, but just look at the oodles of money ROTF is making. Heck, look at every movie Bay has ever directed. He's living proof to the contrary, and the smug bastard is proud of it. If more movies were intelligently written, I'd be grateful for it, and probably see more of them in cinemas. Yet this is moronic action flick territory, genuinely 'is' moronic, and is still blowing box office records. If memory serves, ROTF is one of the biggest divides between the apparent moviegoing public and the critics in cinema history.

I just can't agree with this... Granted, we're not talking about best written, or the most intellectual of movies, but that still doesn't mean it is the worst written either. Honestly, you can't walk into Transformers and expect to see something like Shakespeare. And I've never put faith into the critics. Ultimately, it's just their opinion of a movie and it isn't their opinion I care about.

...I have to square some of the blame on the writers, and I have yet to see proof that they can write a story that doesn't disappoint on multiple levels. What else have they got in their body of work, here? The Island? The Legend of Zorro? Yeah..

"The Island" I thought had an excellent story actually. It had the whole moral dilemma with a sci-fi twist to it, action, mystery... Really not sure why that one didn't do so well in the Box Office. "The Legend of Zorro" wasn't as good as "The Mask of Zorro" but still was a decent Zorro movie. "Eagle Eye" you failed to mention, was a great movie all around. And then there was "Mission: Impossible III" which I never saw so I cannot speak to.

I'll certainly concede that Bay owns a lot of the faults here, at the end of the day the director is responsible for directing the film, and he was clearly happy having the plot taper off into the ether for the sake of awwwwwesome action scenes and totally radical back-patting thanks to Prime and the military.

To disagree with you're point on JJ Abrams, and use this quote as a starting point, the director does have the power to make changes to the script not only during filming but in editing as well. For example, JJ Abrams cut out some scenes in Star Trek where the Klingons capture Nero's crew after their ship was crippled by the Kelvin and the subsequent scene where Nero breaks out years later. With out those parts, it seems to the audience like Nero was just sitting in space for 20+ years waiting for Spock to show up from the future. This is by no means the writer's fault given the decision to drop those scenes came from the director.