Should BLAME come off Hasbro & on the Economy?

[Tigermegatron]

But then...why are only the larger-scale characters made into Commander class toys, while the ones smaller than them stay as Legion, and vice-versa? If the Commanders were meant to act as their own, SW-style all-encompassing scale, then why didn't we see any character double dipping? There was no Commander Bumblebee, or Starscream (nor were there any Legion Class Optimuses or Megatrons in Cyberverse). For that matter, why were there Cyberverse Action Sets that included either Legion or Commander figures? These playsets are made to be used by their included figure (Commander or Legion) and can then hook up and interact with other sets. The two size classes are part of the same scale/subline, they are definitely meant to be used together.

I think the 2008 TF Animated toy line started this. with the basic sized Activators being smaller sized versions of the larger/higher priced/core character toys in the animated toy line.

Afterwards,other TF toy line like DOTM copied the what animated did with the activators. for Dotm the activators were re-named commanders.

It's possible hasbro doesn't think the basic sized TF toys would sell decent in stores without being core characters that are in the media. maybe hasbro has a valid reason,it's possible the basic sized TF toy sales were extremly low. Hasbro did cancel the basic sized TF toys for the Armada toy line. With the 2001 RID toy line,I don't remember any basics being sold by themselves,the Rid basics got sold in 3 packs inside a $14.99 mega sized box.

Yes,I'm one of those TF fans that considers the Basics,Scouts,Activators & commanders as all being the same size catergory & but with different re-named names for the same size class.

[Onslaught Six]

It's possible hasbro doesn't think the basic sized TF toys would sell decent in stores without being core characters that are in the media. maybe hasbro has a valid reason,it's possible the basic sized TF toy sales were extremly low. Hasbro did cancel the basic sized TF toys for the Armada toy line.

I'm thinking this might have been a factor too. All of the Basics throughout ROTF and the Yellowbox line were all just no-name characters who weren't even in the film (with Ejector and Scalpel as exceptions). And also, half the line was repaints. Some of those moulds got repainted three or four times.

They did replace Basics with Minicons for Armada, but that was key to getting shit tons of Minicons out there. Come Energon, they spliced the Basics back in (with occasional Minicons like the Energon Saber or Cybertron's Recon Team.)

With the 2001 RID toy line,I don't remember any basics being sold by themselves,the Rid basics got sold in 3 packs inside a $14.99 mega sized box.

There were only two of those--the Predacon threepack and the "Vehicon" threepack (which were Autobot repaints of Beast Machines Vehicons). The "basic" price point still existed; it just contained Spychanger two-packs and Combaticons, as well as the Obsidian repaint in the later end of the line.

Yes,I'm one of those TF fans that considers the Basics,Scouts,Activators & commanders as all being the same size catergory & but with different re-named names for the same size class.

I don't think Activators were part of this hierarchy, they seem like they belong in a different kind of classification alongside Fast Action Battlers and Powerbots and whatever other crap.

Not at all. Legion is a throwback to the low-cost Legends scale that was created for non-toy-retailers to have a Transformers presence, like CVS Drug Stores. Cyberverse was created years later basically to act as a "Star Wars figures" type of expression, 4-inch collectible TF toys that can be displayed a la collectors' Star Wars figures (the idea was from one of the guys who went from SW team to TF team, at least according to Hasbro's SDCC '10 panel, or maybe it was their Botcon '11 panel). Basically they're just Cyberverse because they're both "basic" sized and priced.

But then...why are only the larger-scale characters made into Commander class toys, while the ones smaller than them stay as Legion, and vice-versa? If the Commanders were meant to act as their own, SW-style all-encompassing scale, then why didn't we see any character double dipping? There was no Commander Bumblebee, or Starscream (nor were there any Legion Class Optimuses or Megatrons in Cyberverse). For that matter, why were there Cyberverse Action Sets that included either Legion or Commander figures? These playsets are made to be used by their included figure (Commander or Legion) and can then hook up and interact with other sets. The two size classes are part of the same scale/subline, they are definitely meant to be used together.

This. What JT's saying might work from a marketing and development mindset, but the Legion/Legends figures are definitely supposed to interact with the Commander-scale guys. It's why all the Commanders are Big Dudes like Prime, Sentinel, Megs and Blackout, and those that aren't (Powerglide, Guzzle) are Tiny Dudes With Big Altmodes, so arguably Powerglide is a huge guy in DOTM. Prowl's right--if they weren't intended to be a compatible product (hence labelling them all "Cyberverse,") then there'd be lots of double-dipping with Commander-scale Bumblebee and Legion-scale Optimus Prime.

[BWprowl]

I think the 2008 TF Animated toy line started this. with the basic sized Activators being smaller sized versions of the larger/higher priced/core character toys in the animated toy line.

Afterwards,other TF toy line like DOTM copied the what animated did with the activators. for Dotm the activators were re-named commanders.

Except with Animated, Activators and Legends were clearly different lines, with both scales having versions of some characters (Optimus and Bumblebee, for instance). Heck, the Animated Legends weren't even sold under the Animated line, they were part of the concurrent TF Universe line. And scale amongst both, especially Activators, was completely out of whack.

But with Cyberverse, the two sizes are part of the same, more consistent, sub-scale, sold in the same line/sub-line, and there's no double-dipping or crossover, just 'smaller' characters being done at the Legion scale, and 'bigger' characters done at the Commander scale. They're meant to be the same scale/line, used together.

It's possible hasbro doesn't think the basic sized TF toys would sell decent in stores without being core characters that are in the media. maybe hasbro has a valid reason,it's possible the basic sized TF toy sales were extremly low. Hasbro did cancel the basic sized TF toys for the Armada toy line. With the 2001 RID toy line,I don't remember any basics being sold by themselves,the Rid basics got sold in 3 packs inside a $14.99 mega sized box.

There was still a Basic size class in RiD, but it was only $5 and was mostly used for the Spychanger 2-packs, though the Ruination limbs were also sold at that price point, and we got that BM Obsidian repaint there too. Armada also did have a $7 'Basic' price point, but that was exclusively reserved for Mini-Con 3-packs. So the price point was still around, if being used a little differently than usual.

Spoiler

Six beat me to a lot of my points while I was typing this post, but I'll go ahead and put it up anyway.

[JediTricks]

But then...why are only the larger-scale characters made into Commander class toys, while the ones smaller than them stay as Legion, and vice-versa? If the Commanders were meant to act as their own, SW-style all-encompassing scale, then why didn't we see any character double dipping? There was no Commander Bumblebee, or Starscream (nor were there any Legion Class Optimuses or Megatrons in Cyberverse). For that matter, why were there Cyberverse Action Sets that included either Legion or Commander figures? These playsets are made to be used by their included figure (Commander or Legion) and can then hook up and interact with other sets. The two size classes are part of the same scale/subline, they are definitely meant to be used together.

They're a system NOW, but they weren't designed to be, neither one was designed with the other in mind. The first Cyberverse playset, the DOTM Ark, doesn't integrate its closed sections to Commanders, from what I've read. And the smaller $15 Cyberverse action sets are themed around their specific figures' sizes.

Look, I just want more kawaii animu girls in my Transformers, is that too much to ask?

YES. Can't you just buy some Kotobukiya Bishouju figures like a normal geek-pervert?

I don't think Activators were part of this hierarchy, they seem like they belong in a different kind of classification alongside Fast Action Battlers and Powerbots and whatever other crap.

Hasbro treated them as Animated's singular Basic line, so while they might be gimmicky, they are intended to be mainline product.

What JT's saying might work from a marketing and development mindset, but the Legion/Legends figures are definitely supposed to interact with the Commander-scale guys. It's why all the Commanders are Big Dudes like Prime, Sentinel, Megs and Blackout, and those that aren't (Powerglide, Guzzle) are Tiny Dudes With Big Altmodes, so arguably Powerglide is a huge guy in DOTM. Prowl's right--if they weren't intended to be a compatible product (hence labelling them all "Cyberverse,") then there'd be lots of double-dipping with Commander-scale Bumblebee and Legion-scale Optimus Prime.

They were not intended to be compatible product. They came out YEARS apart as concepts, and the intentions were for different markets altogether. They are now used as a system, but Legion started out as Legends, and Legends had Optimus Primes and Jetfires and Megatrons in the same cases as Hot Shots and Bumblebees even through the first 2 movies.

[BWprowl]

They're a system NOW, but they weren't designed to be, neither one was designed with the other in mind. The first Cyberverse playset, the DOTM Ark, doesn't integrate its closed sections to Commanders, from what I've read. And the smaller $15 Cyberverse action sets are themed around their specific figures' sizes.

They were not intended to be compatible product. They came out YEARS apart as concepts, and the intentions were for different markets altogether. They are now used as a system, but Legion started out as Legends, and Legends had Optimus Primes and Jetfires and Megatrons in the same cases as Hot Shots and Bumblebees even through the first 2 movies.

Well yeah, I know the Legends were their own thing, back when they were just Legends. No one's disputing that. But the 'Cyberverse' scale now is very clearly it's own scale composed of two separate size classes. You can buy Cyberverse 'versus' packs of Commander Class guys against Legion Class guys. The Legion toys have hand-holes specifically designed to let them hold the weapons that come with the Commander toys (even the re-used Legends molds from previous lines were remolded to have these hand-holes). The Ark came out well after the initial Cyberverse offerings were out, and scales just as well to either class. It comes packed-in with Roller, who's about halfway between the two sizes, and later versions of the Ark also packed in Sentinel Prime, a Commander class toy. Legends may have started out as their own singular size class, but Cyberverse expanded that scale to include multiple size classes, and playsets and vehicles for them all to interact with.

YES. Can't you just buy some Kotobukiya Bishouju figures like a normal geek-pervert?

Well yeah, but none of them would be of Transformers-related characters.

Spoiler

I do own a few Queen's Blade figures, but that's because those are cool toys of nice designs.

[JediTricks]

Well yeah, I know the Legends were their own thing, back when they were just Legends. No one's disputing that. But the 'Cyberverse' scale now is very clearly it's own scale composed of two separate size classes. You can buy Cyberverse 'versus' packs of Commander Class guys against Legion Class guys. The Legion toys have hand-holes specifically designed to let them hold the weapons that come with the Commander toys (even the re-used Legends molds from previous lines were remolded to have these hand-holes). The Ark came out well after the initial Cyberverse offerings were out, and scales just as well to either class. It comes packed-in with Roller, who's about halfway between the two sizes, and later versions of the Ark also packed in Sentinel Prime, a Commander class toy. Legends may have started out as their own singular size class, but Cyberverse expanded that scale to include multiple size classes, and playsets and vehicles for them all to interact with.

I dunno. The hands are merely a byproduct of the new 3mm clip/rail system, it's standard to Cyberverse and to Deluxe, Human Alliance basics, and others. And I've seen sets before that mixed Energon figures with Movie, Animated Activators with Voyagers, it doesn't seem like 2 things in a box automatically makes them planned to be compatible.

Well yeah, but none of them would be of Transformers-related characters.

That's because Transformers' females aren't meant to be sexually exploitable.

[BWprowl]

I dunno. The hands are merely a byproduct of the new 3mm clip/rail system, it's standard to Cyberverse and to Deluxe, Human Alliance basics, and others. And I've seen sets before that mixed Energon figures with Movie, Animated Activators with Voyagers, it doesn't seem like 2 things in a box automatically makes them planned to be compatible.

The hands are 3mm clips, sure, but that would theoretically only allow them to grab onto larger toys' rails, not use their weapons (they've only got 3mm holes for hands, no rails on themselves, y'see?), as opposed to being able to hold the weapons that only the Commander Class toys include, which is all the hand-holes actually allow them to do?

It's just...if the two size classes weren't meant to be used together, displayed together, to have their accessories and playsets shared, as you're insisting, then why is there all this stuff that indicates that they *were* supposed to do that? I need to check when I get home, but I'd bet I could find publicity pics of Legion and Commanders, sharing space, being used together. And again, if the two size classes are mutually exclusive, then why isn't there a single instance of Hasbro releasing a character in Cyberverse in both Legion and Commander classes? Hasbro released a bunch of Cyberverse Bumblebees, in multiple molds, several of them new ones, and yet none of them was a Commander. Why? Because Bumblebee is a 'small' character, which is what the Legion class is reserved for, so that small characters will look small next to 'big' Commander class characters, which they're meant to be used with.

That's because Transformers' females aren't meant to be sexually exploitable.

Hey now, there's a big difference between 'sexually exploitable' and 'cute, uguu~'. I'm just asking for the latter.

Oh god, you know what we need? A TF with an itassha altmode- one of those Japanese cars with the anime girl decals plastered all over it. The mecha from Akibaranger is close, but an actual TF turning into one of those would be hilariously awesome.

[JediTricks]

I dunno. The hands are merely a byproduct of the new 3mm clip/rail system, it's standard to Cyberverse and to Deluxe, Human Alliance basics, and others. And I've seen sets before that mixed Energon figures with Movie, Animated Activators with Voyagers, it doesn't seem like 2 things in a box automatically makes them planned to be compatible.

The hands are 3mm clips, sure, but that would theoretically only allow them to grab onto larger toys' rails, not use their weapons (they've only got 3mm holes for hands, no rails on themselves, y'see?), as opposed to being able to hold the weapons that only the Commander Class toys include, which is all the hand-holes actually allow them to do?

Commander Class and Human Alliance Basics weapons as of right now, and there's a few instances of 3mm weapons on Deluxes I think as well.

It's just...if the two size classes weren't meant to be used together, displayed together, to have their accessories and playsets shared, as you're insisting, then why is there all this stuff that indicates that they *were* supposed to do that? I need to check when I get home, but I'd bet I could find publicity pics of Legion and Commanders, sharing space, being used together. And again, if the two size classes are mutually exclusive, then why isn't there a single instance of Hasbro releasing a character in Cyberverse in both Legion and Commander classes? Hasbro released a bunch of Cyberverse Bumblebees, in multiple molds, several of them new ones, and yet none of them was a Commander. Why? Because Bumblebee is a 'small' character, which is what the Legion class is reserved for, so that small characters will look small next to 'big' Commander class characters, which they're meant to be used with.

Hasbro put Macross with Microman and Diaclone, it doesn't mean they were intended to be together. I am only conveying what Hasbro's own design team said regarding the creation of the Commander concept, how it came about had nothing to do with being used together, that came about later as a secondary thing.

That's because Transformers' females aren't meant to be sexually exploitable.

Hey now, there's a big difference between 'sexually exploitable' and 'cute, uguu~'. I'm just asking for the latter.

But you want to own cute sexy toys of them, which IMO is making it sexually exploitative. If it weren't sexually exploiting, then it wouldn't matter if they were cute, they'd just have to be representative who they are.

Oh god, you know what we need? A TF with an itassha altmode- one of those Japanese cars with the anime girl decals plastered all over it. The mecha from Akibaranger is close, but an actual TF turning into one of those would be hilariously awesome.

Oh, thank god, I thought you were going to say one of those anime girl pillows with the boobs. Your idea isn't half as bad as that, although where are the girls going to end up in robot mode?

[BWprowl]

But you want to own cute sexy toys of them, which IMO is making it sexually exploitative. If it weren't sexually exploiting, then it wouldn't matter if they were cute, they'd just have to be representative who they are.

No, just cute. If a plush toy of a puppy is cute, does that make it sexually exploitive?

Oh, thank god, I thought you were going to say one of those anime girl pillows with the boobs. Your idea isn't half as bad as that, although where are the girls going to end up in robot mode?

Pretty much everywhere, apparently...

[JediTricks]

No, just cute. If a plush toy of a puppy is cute, does that make it sexually exploitive?

No, but if a plush toy of a puppy is wearing a short skirt and posed flashing its panties, that is sexually exploitive.

Let's drop the odd hyperbole, because we're not talking about puppies, we're talking about female people -- people aren't intended to be ONLY cute, to use one as such is exploiting them even if they are fictional because it represents a greater group (in this case "cute girls"). T-AI is not terribly exploitative, except perhaps her female proportions (let's not quibble over the fact that she's not human or alive at all since she's expressed to the audience as a visual medium), but then there's this:
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AI_PVC.jpg
That's a little exploitative.

Then there's everything here:
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Shaoshao_Li
even the KP Position versions are sexually-exploitative costumes there, and they're drawn on little-kid bodies.

How do you make Carly cute without being exploitative? She's not terribly sexy or cute in G1 that I can remember, she's blonde and a female but not tarted up or cuted up, if you'll forgive the turn of phrase, she's just a girl. If you try to make her a "cute Transformers-themed girl" you step right onto the minefield we're discussing here.

Pretty much everywhere, apparently...

See, that's no good, and not just because it's a Prius. It has to be done in a way that makes some level of sense in robot mode.