Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

The originals... ok, not exactly, but the original named "The TransFormers" anyway. Take THAT, Diaclone!
Generation 1, Generation 2 - Removable fists? Check. Unlicensed vehicle modes? Check. Kickass tape deck robot with transforming cassette minions? DOUBLE CHECK!!!
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:The point of the attack would be to cripple one's opponent. Wiping them out would do just as well. (And, killing them sooner, rather than later, would have saved more Federation lives in the long term. That should have been Picard's first, if not only, concern.)
So just to potentially save a few more Federation lives in the long run justifies denying an entire species the right to exist? The mass murder of trillions of drones, all essentially victims of the Borg themselves that we've seen can be liberated from the Collective? No. The Federation was founded on ideals of universal liberty, rights, and equality, not to wipe out anyone they have a grudge against. Which, again, is why I find it odd the characters would be so supportive of carrying out such a plan in the first place. Picard might have a duty to protect Federation lives, but that doesn't justify genocide or make it any less criminal.
I like how the Autobots were willing to blow up a friendly planet with real infrastructure....but never once launched a "kill 'em all" attack on Charr.
Guess that's cartoon logic for you.
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138 Scourge
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by 138 Scourge »

Now, I'm totally with you on the "No on Genocide" thing, hundred percent. It's not something I'd like my fictional heroes doing deliberately (though, John Stewart I let slide since I didn't mean to), buuuut...is the Borg really a race? Since any species can end up Borg-assimilated. I guess they've got the lil' baby Borgs, but are they born/bred/cloned or whatever on the ship, or are they babies that were taken and assimilated?

Because if you look at it the one way, they're just victims of some seriously maladjusted technology. Looked at the other way, they're a species on their own, capable of incorporated other races into their own (interbreeding sort of) and just in a really brutal expansionist period.

Eh. Either way, I still wasn't in favor of the genocide.

Back on topic...I guess we should just be glad that Rodimus wasn't in charge during "The Golden Lagoon". That electrum sure gave the Decepticons an edge, and all.
Dominic wrote: too many people likely would have enjoyed it as....well a house-elf gang-bang.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Sparky Prime »

138 Scourge wrote:buuuut...is the Borg really a race? Since any species can end up Borg-assimilated. I guess they've got the lil' baby Borgs, but are they born/bred/cloned or whatever on the ship, or are they babies that were taken and assimilated?
Well modern definitions of race consider it to be a cultural construct, independent of biological or genetic variation. Instead, it's based on various factors such as culture, language, social practice... So it doesn't matter that the Borg are made up of many different assimilated species, they'd still be considered a race.

The Borg don't procreate as far as we know, instead just assimilating new individuals into the Collective, so those babies were probably just assimilated from a planet they'd visited.
Back on topic...I guess we should just be glad that Rodimus wasn't in charge during "The Golden Lagoon". That electrum sure gave the Decepticons an edge, and all.
No kidding. Based on what he did to Paradron, I'm thinking he would have tried to blow up Earth.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Mako Crab »

With the Borg, considering their technological prowess, they could easily extract eggs and sperm from their own drones and develop test-tube baby borg. At least that's always how I figured they did it. I can't imagine borg drones having intercourse. I mean, they're just covered in all that tech junk.
Dominic wrote: I like how the Autobots were willing to blow up a friendly planet with real infrastructure....but never once launched a "kill 'em all" attack on Charr.

Dom
-also recalls Rodimus feeling bad for the Decepticons in FFoD.
Ooh, good calls on both counts! Hadn't even thought of that. Seriously, if Rodimus were that concerned about the threat the Decepticons posed to the rest of the universe, why not destroy Charr? Especially considering how much death and destruction the 'cons had wreaked over the course of countless millions of years and also how disorganized and in tatters the 'cons were after Unicron's attack, why wouldn't he launch an all-out attack on Charr?
And it's not as though Rodimus didn't intend for Paradron's destruction to take out the entire Decepticon invasion force, because he didn't give any warning to the enemy. If it weren't for Galvatron's over-developed paranoia, the 'cons wouldn't have evacuated when they did.
Shockwave wrote:Heroes give us something to aspire to, a standard to set for ourselves. When the hero gets written in a way that falls short of that, it's disappointing. I would say that the Autobots are being portrayed a little more realistic, they are at war and killing does have to be a part of that for survival if nothing else, but it's not something we're used to in TFs. You can have a non lethal war in a 30 minutes Saturday morning cartoon, but that doesn't work for translating that into a "realistic" live action movie.
I will give the Bay movies credit for making the Autobots proactive for a change and going out to hunt down their enemies, rather than always reacting to whatever evil scheme Megatron has lined up. I used to always complain that the 'bots always sat around doing nothing, waiting for something bad to happen, when they should be out trying to take out Decepticons. So now we finally got it, but the portrayal seems to have left a bad taste in the mouths of some. I understand where the backlash is coming from though. It's okay to show the heroes being badass buttkickers, but we don't necessarily want to see Optimus Prime reveling in the bodily harm he's inflicting. The whole, "GIVE ME YOUR FACE!" line kind of screams of Prime crossing the line.
For me, the scene in RotF that was really handled poorly was the opening skirmish with Sideways. With Demolishor, sure, we can see that he's destroying everything in his path and mowing down innocent bystanders. With Sideways, all we're shown on-screen is a Decepticon sitting idly, not doing anything wrong at all, suddenly coming under attack by 6 Autobots and a team of NEST soldiers. Sideways flees for his life until he's killed by Sideswipe, who then quips about how damn good he is at killing Decepticons. No quips or verbal jabs from Sideways.
I understand that we're simply expected to know that, because he's a Decepticon, Sideways was most likely up to no good. But from a visual story-telling perspective, it does a poor job of establishing the good and bad guys. If the faction symbols had been reversed, we'd most likely be talking about how evil those 6 Decepticons were for ganging up on one lone Autobot who wasn't even fighting back.
David Slack, a producer on the Teen Titans cartoon, said in an interview that they have something called the squint test. It refers to how much explaining needs to be done. He said that when an episode opens and kids see some guy standing on top of a tipped over armored car with money spilling out, they know he's doing something bad. If you do the squint test on Sideways, he was just sitting there doing nothing. That's not good.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Shockwave »

And to further expand on that my supervisor was telling me about the opening of the movie Wrong Turn 2 where a girl wanders into the woods and get cut in half lengthwise by cannibals. I said "Make them robots and that's TF2 started".
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Mako Crab »

Ugh. Why did Wrong Turn get a sequel, let alone sequelS? That movie sucked. It's like Bogeyman. Why does Bogeyman get sequels? Do people actually like that crap? Blows me away. Bogeyman was so bad, that my siblings and I all use it as the barometer of suck. Whenever we see a really bad movie, we ask each other, "Yeah, but was it as bad as Bogeyman?"
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Shockwave »

I could maybe see enough people liking it just to give it the MST3K treatment. But that would be about it.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by 138 Scourge »

Word. Wrong Turn was horrible, and that's coming from a guy that likes bad horror movies. The only part of that thing that was any good was the shots of "real" inbred mutants at the beginning. Otherwise, a sub-par knockoff of "The Hills Have Eyes" with a little "Deliverance" flavor thrown in. Could've been tolerable, but wasn't.

As for the ROTF guys, what I saw happening there was Demolishor and Sideways chillin' out, maxin' relaxin' all cool until a couple of 'Bots that're up to no good start making trouble in their neighborhood. Demolishor wrecked some stuff, and likely did hurt some people, but he wasn't fighting back, he was trying to get the hell outta Dodge. Sure, we know they're Decepticons, and as such are probably up to something, and we're told later in passing that they were "looking for something", but the execution of that whole scene (including the execution in that scene) just didn't work for me. Even something like Demolishor putting up more of a fight instead of just running might have made it more palatable.
Dominic wrote: too many people likely would have enjoyed it as....well a house-elf gang-bang.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Sparky Prime »

Mako Crab wrote:With the Borg, considering their technological prowess, they could easily extract eggs and sperm from their own drones and develop test-tube baby borg. At least that's always how I figured they did it. I can't imagine borg drones having intercourse. I mean, they're just covered in all that tech junk.
Come to think of it... In an episode of Voyager, "Drone", after the Doctor's mobile-emitter was accidentally infected with nano-probes, it was able to use the DNA from an Ensign as a template to create a Drone. Although, that was a highly unusual situation given the mobile-emitter's 29th century origins, and Seven did say that the Borg don't procreate, they just assimilate. Still, I suppose the episode goes to show they could create new drones besides just assimilation.
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Re: Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

Post by Dominic »

Procreation would just be a "new" application of captured tech. Of course, it would lead to more expensive babies. I really would not be against a genocide in the case of an enemy like the Borg. In fact, resources allowing, I would *demand* it.
Well modern definitions of race consider it to be a cultural construct, independent of biological or genetic variation. Instead, it's based on various factors such as culture, language, social practice... So it doesn't matter that the Borg are made up of many different assimilated species, they'd still be considered a race.
Okay, sure. But, what would the real cost of wiping them out be?




I can forgive the "squint test" mentioned above. There is dialogue that clearly states that the Decepticons are up to no good. Stopping them is just a good idea. Are the Decepticons being rational? Yes. They want to perpetuate their species, and hopefully not get killed in the process. But, their goals put them in inevitable conflict with humanity and the Autobots. Violence may not be the best first option, but it can still be an option.

Killing them was fine. Having a party while doing it was another question.



Dom
-wow, Rodimus is a dingus.
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