Armada Unicron

[Dominic]

You seem to have a bias against comics. Like it or not, they count.

Unicron's power levels are, as defined in various places, super-duper high. Unicron is big, strong, and nasty in all sorts of ways.

To make the fight fair, we can strip Unicron of internalized time-travel and anything derived from him being some kind of natural force or universal necessity. (At those power levels, the Empire would be so out-classed that the fight is not worth considering.) If Unicron can build an external time-machine, as shown in "Target 2006" or "Legacy of Unicron", then we have to assume the Empire can as well. Of course, given that this is assumed to be a skirmish, neither faction would have a chance to do that.

The fear used by the Empire is based on their relative strength. But, if against something that is equal or stronger, that tool would become less effective. And, Unicron is a pretty dreadful presence. I am betting the Imperials would not be making too many leadership saves.

JT is right, assuming I read him right, in that if we assume a transforming Death Star, then we have deviated from the movies and other material. (I think the proto-type DS was a retcon Marvel used to explain the Tarkin, but I could be wrong.)

Here are the combatants:

Unicron: Heralds, and the ability to make more from eaten/defeated foes. Some ships. Limited telepathy to "nudge" others along. Ranged weapons and tractor beams. The ability to transform. Being seen as absurdly over-powered.

Death Star/Darth Star: Large numbers of crew and attending ships. Commanded by Thrawn (if only to compensate for the powers still allowed Unicron). The ability to transform into a complex mech.

No matter how good the DS's crew, Unicron is a centralized mind controlling a large body. The Darth Star, in either form, would still only be able to move as quickly as orders could be relayed. Lets us assume that the Darth Star does not transform during the fight, as transforming would only complicate the command and control aspects of the fight for the Imperials. (And, probable loss of men and equipment would make such a tactic prohibitively expensive in all but the most dire scenarios, to say nothing of the bad idea a transforming Death Star would be to begin with.)

Of course, now, we still have to get into particulars, such as the nature of the fight. Who is the aggressor? How much is the element of suprise a factor? Are they figting around a planet or asteroid field? If they are near a planet, what planet? (The Empire would be more willing to shoot through Tatooine or Naboo than it would Coruscant or Bespin.) Oh, and we would need more reliable stats for all parties than the packaging would provide.

Are there are any RPG character builders out there that we could apply to this?

Dom
-see, the internet!

[JediTricks]

You seem to have a bias against comics. Like it or not, they count.

Which ones, the really crummy ones that contradict the show, the really crummy ones that contradict the toys' bios, the really crummy ones that contradict the other comics, or the really crummy ones that get retconned out of existence?

To make the fight fair, we can strip Unicron of internalized time-travel and anything derived from him being some kind of natural force or universal necessity. (At those power levels, the Empire would be so out-classed that the fight is not worth considering.) If Unicron can build an external time-machine, as shown in "Target 2006" or "Legacy of Unicron", then we have to assume the Empire can as well. Of course, given that this is assumed to be a skirmish, neither faction would have a chance to do that.

Time machines are bullshit, period. Simply have the guy go back in time and erase everything from happening, Unicron could make the Transformers never happen at all, it's crap. And that whole "transformers being entropy and darkness" is such a load too, talk about self-aggrandizing. If they were true, the Autobots and Decepticons wouldn't have stood a chance either.

(I think the proto-type DS was a retcon Marvel used to explain the Tarkin, but I could be wrong.)

No, the prototype DS was not a Marvel entry, it was a minor element of Dark Empire II from Dark Horse, and a major element of Jedi Search (a book).

Limited telepathy to "nudge" others along.

Um... unless it's telepathy among other robots (which would be "communications", not really telepathy ) I'm calling shenanigans on this one.

Death Star/Darth Star: Large numbers of crew and attending ships. Commanded by Thrawn (if only to compensate for the powers still allowed Unicron). The ability to transform into a complex mech.

So, just gonna ignore the hyperspace ability and the giant superlaser then, and IG-88's brain able to control the Death Star from a central point?

No matter how good the DS's crew, Unicron is a centralized mind controlling a large body. The Darth Star, in either form, would still only be able to move as quickly as orders could be relayed. Lets us assume that the Darth Star does not transform during the fight, as transforming would only complicate the command and control aspects of the fight for the Imperials. (And, probable loss of men and equipment would make such a tactic prohibitively expensive in all but the most dire scenarios, to say nothing of the bad idea a transforming Death Star would be to begin with.)

Good thing Unicron is so fucking swift then, or your argument would fall flat on its face. And um, how long did it take Unicron to transform onscreen? No vulnerability there while he shifts everything under the sun for 10 minutes, right?

This is ridiculous. Death Star: Giant gun that shoots planets from far away, the end.

[Onslaught Six]

So we're just to assume that the Death Star doesn't need to actually power up its weapons or take time to fire them, or anything?

Yes, we're ignoring I-88 or whatever because it defeats the purpose--it's not Unicron vs. Some Droid Using The Death Star As A Body, it's Unicron Vs. The Death Star. That means the big thing that wasn't a moon, but a space station, in ANH. That's it.

[Dominic]

In the case of TF, the comics have done as much, if not more, to define the franchise than the cartoon. And, Unicron has more iterations in the comics than the cartoon, and more resonant iterations. (A medium having moving pictures does not make its content more valid.)

I agree that time-machines are problematic, so that is why I am assuming they are not a factor here.

I am not ruling out the DS having a hyper-drive and such. (I mistakenly forgot to re-iterate that the DS is "shooty as heck" in my last post.) I assume that for the skirmish we are describing, super-light travel would not be a factor. (And, Unicron presumably would have the same.) O6 is right that the DS is hardly a fast-attack vehicle. It can do terrible damage to a target, but it takes a while to get into position (as seen in Episode 4) and to actually shoot. Also, it is incredibly vulnerable to guys walking around on/in it. Imagine the fighter runs from the movies, but give the fighters the dexterity that one of Unicron's henchmen would have. The Empire could also of course be landing troops on/in Unicron. (Of course, Unicron could consume/convert those guys.) And, I doubt Unicron would just approach from a vector that matches the planet buster's line of fire, assuming of course that his armour would be broken by such an attack.

Unicron's telepathy is shown to be something outside of normal communications. (Look at the panic he causes in the "Armada" comics. In the fan-club comics, bad as they are, he can provoke aggression in biological aliens, which of course can hinder judgement.) Of course, the Empire has force users who can compensate for, or otherwise counter, this.

Introducing IG88 into the mix brings us to the problem I mention above with Unicron. Which DS is this? Assuming we are counting non-movie "Star Wars", (which I am fine with in this case), IG88 still co-opted the DSmkII, which was never even shown to be complete. There are also the prototypes from Jedi Academy and Dark Saber, the Tarkin, and of course the Darth Star.

The Darth Star, assuming it is consistent with other SWTF mecha, is assumed to be a piloted mecha, not a sentient 'bot. (I suppose the mecha that have astro-droids incorporated may be piloted by the droids, but that is another set of questions.) So, unless the Empire takes a page from "Exo-Squad", the Darth Star is controlled by a crew who needs orders relayed to it. If the crew is not co-ordinated by a reasonably intelligent commander, they would wind up tripping all over themselves.

Given that Unicron for this scenario is a composite, it is fair to allow the same for the DS. So, let us assume the DS can transform, allowing it greater dexterity. Let us also assume that when it transforms, the commanders are issuing orders directly to a centralized droid brain, rather than to/through a crew.

At this point though, "terrain" becomes a factor. Where is the fight happening? What planets, if any are nearby? What does each party want?

Dom

[Onslaught Six]

Presumably the fight is in blank space with seemingly infinite room around them to do battle with. Assuming planets and such are around only implies that Unicron and Darth Star are going to get into a Movie-esque hand-to-hand fight, which isn't the point of the exercise, I think. The argument comes up in the first place because Unicron and the Death Star are both giant 'planets,' and the fact that Unicron can transform never fully becomes relevant until we throw Darth Star into the mix.

Motive is another thing entirely, I think we're supposed to assume that they're Just Fighting for no good reason. I don't see either one of them having any possible motive that would give them some kind of edge.

[Dominic]

Depending on the end goal of the fight, one might be more or less willing to play "scorech earth" than the other. Of course, given the idea behind this exercise, no good reason makes as much sense as a logical reason.

Dom

[JediTricks]

So we're just to assume that the Death Star doesn't need to actually power up its weapons or take time to fire them, or anything?

Death Star 2 had a 5 minute cycle time for that, learning from the mistakes of the first one.

I assume that for the skirmish we are describing, super-light travel would not be a factor. (And, Unicron presumably would have the same.)

Sooo, you're taking an advantage the Death Star has and cutting it arbitrarily, then claiming that you presume Unicron has an FTL drive as well, despite the fact that he's always pretty much just lumbered through space.

O6 is right that the DS is hardly a fast-attack vehicle. It can do terrible damage to a target, but it takes a while to get into position (as seen in Episode 4) and to actually shoot.

I still argue that the Death Star 2's firing rate is fast and has a quick aiming time. ANH is the original Death Star, and they didn't take a while to blow up Alderaan, just Yavin 4 because of the tricky gravitational issues navigating the gas giant Yavin.

Also, it is incredibly vulnerable to guys walking around on/in it.

How do you figure? The X-wings and Y-wings bombed the crap out of the surface and barely made a scratch, took out a very small portion of 1 deck and a gunner tower, not that impressive really. And those gunner towers are everywhere, they should prove quite effective against TFs walking around on the surface (walking being a rather slow method of movement, and TFs making for large targets).

And, I doubt Unicron would just approach from a vector that matches the planet buster's line of fire, assuming of course that his armour would be broken by such an attack.

Ok, so I guess we're going to continue to pretend that Unicron is swift and agile. And I love the idea that Unicron's armor can withstand the amount of force it'd require to destroy a planet, that's realistic... riiiight.

Unicron's telepathy is shown to be something outside of normal communications. (Look at the panic he causes in the "Armada" comics. In the fan-club comics, bad as they are, he can provoke aggression in biological aliens, which of course can hinder judgement.)

Way to go to the strong sources there Dom, and is this robot-to-biological telepathy or just to bot? Because who gives a shit if Unicron tells all the astromechs and protocol droids to revolt, they'll just get cut down in a flash anyway.

Introducing IG88 into the mix brings us to the problem I mention above with Unicron. Which DS is this? Assuming we are counting non-movie "Star Wars", (which I am fine with in this case), IG88 still co-opted the DSmkII, which was never even shown to be complete. There are also the prototypes from Jedi Academy and Dark Saber, the Tarkin, and of course the Darth Star.

This is bunk, you're using an idealized version of Unicron from multiple sources, abilities and strengths - I've shown that there are Death Stars built after ROTJ, which means the builders could learn from those mistakes. Also, the Death Star 2 was fully armed and operational, it just wasn't fully built or had its shields at the time - had the Rebs not blown it up with their attack run inside, it would have been the contender.

At this point though, "terrain" becomes a factor. Where is the fight happening? What planets, if any are nearby? What does each party want?

"Space". Can take the battle to any Star Wars planet you like I suppose, though if you go to Coruscant, there will be significant environment from which to choose from - some of those skyhooks are armed. But this isn't about what the locals will do, only what the 2 combatants will do.

Motive is another thing entirely, I think we're supposed to assume that they're Just Fighting for no good reason. I don't see either one of them having any possible motive that would give them some kind of edge.

While I agree that motive doesn't really factor in, there are several possible motives including Unicron wanting to eat Coruscant (it's an energy-rich world with lots of technology) and the DS defending it, the DS trying to destroy a threat to the Imperial power base, or the DS destroying that new thing in the sky. But I think this much is clear - the Death Star will not be holding back, the Empire is not known for its mercy or finesse.

[Dominic]

Ok, so I guess we're going to continue to pretend that Unicron is swift and agile. And I love the idea that Unicron's armor can withstand the amount of force it'd require to destroy a planet, that's realistic... riiiight.

Realism....uh, yeah. Man, I just do not know what to say here. But, I doubt the DS could take a punch from Unicron.

Sooo, you're taking an advantage the Death Star has and cutting it arbitrarily, then claiming that you presume Unicron has an FTL drive as well, despite the fact that he's always pretty much just lumbered through space.

I am not cutting an advantage. But, I am assuming that it is not much of a factor unless the Imperials are using really ornate tactics, like parthian shots or something. And, Unicron is shown in "Armada" to have the ability to jump between timelines and dimensions, which I would assume is roughly like warp-jumping. I mis-phrased my earlier comments. Either way, the DS having an FTL is not the advantage you seem to think it is. Unless we assume advanced tactics, I would just as soon take away the FTL from both parties.

How do you figure? The X-wings and Y-wings bombed the crap out of the surface and barely made a scratch, took out a very small portion of 1 deck and a gunner tower, not that impressive really. And those gunner towers are everywhere, they should prove quite effective against TFs walking around on the surface (walking being a rather slow method of movement, and TFs making for large targets

I was using a composite DS based on episodes 4 and 6. Both were vulnerable to infiltrators and bombing runs. There as a technician (maybe an officer, I dunno) on the first DS who was ready to evacuate when he figured out what the rebels where doing. Another officer in the board-room scene expressed similar concerns, if not as stridently. (Poor guys, they tried to warn the Empire and were ignored for being too negative. Then, everybody died because they just could not listen.)

Way to go to the strong sources there Dom, and is this robot-to-biological telepathy or just to bot? Because who gives a shit if Unicron tells all the astromechs and protocol droids to revolt, they'll just get cut down in a flash anyway.

You knock me for using sourcebooks and comics (when "Armada" was fantastic), and those sources as "weak" (which I will almost concede with the con-comics), when you.....

This is bunk, you're using an idealized version of Unicron from multiple sources, abilities and strengths - I've shown that there are Death Stars built after ROTJ, which means the builders could learn from those mistakes. Also, the Death Star 2 was fully armed and operational, it just wasn't fully built or had its shields at the time - had the Rebs not blown it up with their attack run inside, it would have been the contender.

....are using EU? Mind you, Hasbro never came out and said "Armada" did not count. And, only small portions of DW's run on the comics have been cancelled out completely. Lucas on the other hand.......

So, let us assume Unicron v/x the Death Star X. DSX is the transforming "Darth Star" craft. Its primary weapon, while ranged and terrible in effect, still needs to be aimed. And, that brings us to the larger questions of terrain and motive for the combatants. If the DS sneaks up on a sleeping Unicron, then obviously, it has an advantage. But, if Unicron is sneaking up on the Empire, or the Empire does not have the DS in place, the the advantage belongs to Unicron, as it would be able to shrug off the Empire's other attacks. (Remember, Unicron is listed as "it" in the DW sourcebooks.)


Similarly, terrain does matter. The Empire did not fire on the rebels in Episode 4 because there was a planet in the way. Let us assume the DSX can shoot through a large, solid cored, planet and not loose any lethality. But, would the Empire shoot through a planet like Coruscant or Bespin with symbolic or utilitarian resource value?

Just as the Empire is unlikely to risk destroying the planet it is trying to defend, I would think they might try to capture Unicron is some cases. That would be consistent with Imperial greed and hubris.

Mind you, if I had my way, there would be no grounds to argue Unicron was anything other than a big robot gone rogue. But, as it is now, the Empire has to deal with an over-powered McGuffin monster.

Dom

[Onslaught Six]

You're still missing the point of the exercise, Dom.

You can't go "Who wins in a fight: Hulk or Thing?" and then start throwing in arbitrary conditional statements like "Thing didn't have his Wheaties today" or "Hulk is naked and embarrased so it's hard for him to fight."

The point of it is to, very simply, see who would win in a one-on-one entirely fair duel between two combatants. Goku kicks Vegeta's ass because he's Super Saiyan and is more powerful. Sure, Vegeta might win if he sneaks up on Goku while he's taking a shower, but so could I.

That said, I dunno about your Death-Star-Can't-Take-A-Punch-From-Unicron theory. The big real evidence we have for Unicron's raw physical ability is in TFTM, and while he arguably causes a lot of damage, he only ever seems to scrape off some buildings from the surface.

[onslaught86]

Firstly, I love this thread. Not least because Dom is defending Unicron.

Secondly, if we're narrowing down which Death Star it is, we also need to narrow down which Unicron body. There are at least three.