Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

[Dominic]

I'm really wondering if there's a reason that that might be necessary; like maybe Cybertron's energon supply regenerates at a certain rate, and creating more food than is allocated to you will inevitably cause the planet to run out.

Cyclonus' harvester is not on the grid. Assuming that others are using similar technology, it would not be drawing from the same well as the general population's food supply.

For example, a building with solar panels is not draining power from neighboring buildings, regardless of how those buildings are powered.

Also, I think Rubble is going to die.....

This makes sense. This...really makes sense.

[Ursus mellifera]

Cyclonus' harvester is not on the grid. Assuming that others are using similar technology, it would not be drawing from the same well as the general population's food supply.

For example, a building with solar panels is not draining power from neighboring buildings, regardless of how those buildings are powered.

I also completely forgot about Wheeljack's entire "winged moon" that draws energy from the universe or whatever. Cyclonus' weird little farm shouldn't be any problem.

Also, I think Rubble is going to die.....

This makes sense. This...really makes sense.

I'm pretty proud of this theory.

[Sparky Prime]

No, they are not doing anything illegal. But, that just makes the state scrutiny more unreasonable.

Again, and....? How does it impact maintaining the peace if it isn't illegal, and the state doesn't do anything to prevent it? Scrutiny for living on their own is not the same thing as restrictive social and regulatory controls. And really, as I've pointed out before, I wouldn't even say that Cyclonus was scrutinized for that. They only wanted to talk to him as a possible witness for Brainstorm's murder. The only ones they've shown any scrutiny towards for living off the grid are known members of the Rise who went into hiding. Obviously that has more to do with the violence they're accused of than simply living off the grid.

[Ursus mellifera]

Again, and....? How does it impact maintaining the peace if it isn't illegal, and the state doesn't do anything to prevent it? Scrutiny for living on their own is not the same thing as restrictive social and regulatory controls.

It doesn't have to be the same thing, but it can be. Part of social control is social pressure, which consists mainly of scrutiny. As a real-world example let's look at the current rise(see what I did there ?) of Nazism in the US. Freedom of speech isn't illegal, nor does the state do anything to prevent it, but legal activities from a volatile group easily become illegal actions; often violent ones (like Nazis going from speeches, to protests, to driving cars into crowds of civilians). The Autobots would be fools to not take steps towards that possibility, because less damage and loss of life will occur the more prepared they are. It's not about any one thing vs. any other one thing; like scrutiny vs. control. It's about arguably innocuous actions becoming the first step toward totalitarianism. I'm going to follow this step-by-step in a way it could potentially and realistically go:

1. The Rise is gaining power.
2. More and more members of the Rise begin to live "off the grid" which implies that they don't want the current government (ie: the Autobots) to be aware of their activities.
3. As the Rise is not above domestic terrorism, these potentially hidden activities could realistically be planning a large-scale terrorist attack.
4. The Autobots become increasingly, and reasonably, concerned over this possibility.
5. The Autobots begin to more harshly monitor the Rise, and anyone else whom they consider to behave oddly. This includes Cyclonus.
6. This makes the Rise more angry at the Autobots.
7. This increased aggression causes the Autobots to monitor the Rise even more.
8. Eventually the level of monitoring allowed reaches the limits of current Cybertronian law, and new laws are created that provide authorities with more autonomy, and citizens with less.
9. Repeat steps 1 thru 8 until Cybertron breaks out in civil war, and/or becomes a police state.

Currently, steps 1 thru 4 have already occurred, and each new step makes the next one more likely. Megatron calls it "links in the chain." On Earth we call it a "slippery slope," and the further one slides down, the faster one gets, and the harder it is to stop.

[Dominic]

Again, and....? How does it impact maintaining the peace if it isn't illegal, and the state doesn't do anything to prevent it? Scrutiny for living on their own is not the same thing as restrictive social and regulatory controls.

Chromia and Prowl's dialogue indicates that they are routinely monitoring individuals who harvest their own food (rather than using trackable state-issued rations).

In this scenario, the state is spending police/security resources on people who harvest their own food....because that is worthy of suspicion (for some reason). In real terms, libraries keep the reading selections of constituents confidential. But, in this comic, the state is monitoring people's diets (and is suspicious of people who do not take state rations).

While not totalitarian, it is a clear example of a panoptic state.

It doesn't have to be the same thing, but it can be. Part of social control is social pressure, which consists mainly of scrutiny. As a real-world example let's look at the current rise(see what I did there ?) of Nazism in the US.

Calling it Nazism is an over-sell.

As I pointed out on another forum (FaceBook for those wondering), calling fringe groups "Nazis" gives the fringe groups more credit for media savvy, and administrative infrastructure.

At the very least, no party or group in the US can elevate its own security forces when taking power. Hitler brought the SS to power when he was elected. In the US, everybody used the same legal and security mechanisms.

It's about arguably innocuous actions becoming the first step toward totalitarianism. I'm going to follow this step-by-step in a way it could potentially and realistically go:

I think that the emphasis is going to be on the push-back against state restrictions more than anything else.

[Sparky Prime]

It doesn't have to be the same thing, but it can be. Part of social control is social pressure, which consists mainly of scrutiny.

Yeah, but no, Dom is making it out to be the same thing by claiming Cybertron is a police state, while only citing this scrutiny.

Chromia and Prowl's dialogue indicates that they are routinely monitoring individuals who harvest their own food (rather than using trackable state-issued rations).

Not really. They don't seem to be monitoring Cyclonus like that. And remember, they are looking for a murderer here, someone who doesn't want to be found.

[Ursus mellifera]

Yeah, but no, Dom is making it out to be the same thing by claiming Cybertron is a police state, while only citing this scrutiny.

I agree Cybertron isn't a police state, but it's on the express train there.

Not really. They don't seem to be monitoring Cyclonus like that. And remember, they are looking for a murderer here, someone who doesn't want to be found.

Just like Cybertron isn't technically a police state yet, Cyclonus isn't technically being monitored yet. It looks like they're clearly going to start as of next issue, though. My guess is that he gets lumped into the monitoring of the Rise as just one more "off the grid" nutjob, and that stigma is what helps propel him into joining the Decepticons when they form.

[Sparky Prime]

I agree Cybertron isn't a police state, but it's on the express train there.

I'd agree with that. But again, Dom is claiming it is already there, which is the point I am disputing here.

[Ursus mellifera]

But again, Dom is claiming it is already there, which is the point I am disputing here.

One of the conundrums with levels of governmental security is that it's defined so many different ways by so many different people. For example: to Megatron, Cybertron already is a police state, but to Prowl it's barely not lawless anarchy.

[Shockwave]

I'm gonna side with Sparky on this one, I didn't get that they were suspicious of Cyclonus because he was off the grid, they were interested in him as a potential witness to a murder.