I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mistake

Money, violence, sex, computer graphics, scatalogical humor, racism, robots designed to be rednecks but given European accents, and maybe another sequel to the saga... what's not to love? TF m1, Revenge of the Fallen, Dark of the Moon and now Age of Extinction.

Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby JediTricks » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:52 pm

Sparky Prime wrote:You need me to explain how it was a bad script when you freely admit several of the problems it had? How can you even call it an "adequate" script in the same sentence as saying it's a poor Transformers script that mishandles the characters?
Yes, defend your claim. I said that it had cliche dialogue and a deus ex machina for the villain, but those are not alone things that make a whole script bad, and other than that I cannot see where you are claiming it's a bad script on its own. It's not a respectful adaptation of the material, but that's a reflection on the project as a whole, not the script alone. You said the story is the genesis of the flaws with TF07 and that blame starts with the screenwriters even before it got to the director's hands, I'm disagreeing on 2 levels: the script is an adequate screenplay that got turned into a rancid movie; and the script was crafted around the demands of the director/producer.

And that's exactly what I mean by glossing over the successes he has had in the business. Sure you commented on those two films but you're basically dismissing them by saying he just got lucky with them and pointing out that they're adaptations, like it still doesn't take some skill to make an adaptation into a good movie, let alone one that's critically acclaimed. Instead, you've been focusing on the more negatively reviewed films he wrote like Batman and Robin and acting like that's the true gauge of his writing.
Yeah, I'm going to bring up his work in genre material over straight drama since that's where this new project is, action and soft sci-fi genre. He wrote the scripts to these genre films, many of which were middling or downright dogs:
Batman Forever
Batman & Robin
Lost in Space
Practical Magic
I, Robot
The Da Vinci Code
I Am Legend
Angels & Demons (the Da Vinci Code sequel)
Winter's Tale
Insurgent

So it matters, it weighs heavily on this project beyond his work on 5 dramas, 2 of which are acclaimed, and 7 episodes of a tv show.
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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby Shockwave » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:21 pm

Sparky Prime wrote:we know for a fact Robert Kirkman, Andrew Barrer, Gabriel Ferrari, Art Marcum, Matt Holloway, Zak Penn, Jeff Pinkner, Christina Hodson, Lindsey Beer, Ken Nolan, Geneva Robertson-Dworet and Steven S. DeKnight have signed on as writers


Jesus Christ, what ever happened to just having ONE WRITER!!?? See, I think this is the problem right here, too many damned cooks in the kitchen. It's like they're calling every intern with a random thought a writer. This right here is what makes a shitty movie.
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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby Sparky Prime » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:25 am

JediTricks wrote:Yes, defend your claim. I said that it had cliche dialogue and a deus ex machina for the villain, but those are not alone things that make a whole script bad, and other than that I cannot see where you are claiming it's a bad script on its own. It's not a respectful adaptation of the material, but that's a reflection on the project as a whole, not the script alone. You said the story is the genesis of the flaws with TF07 and that blame starts with the screenwriters even before it got to the director's hands, I'm disagreeing on 2 levels: the script is an adequate screenplay that got turned into a rancid movie; and the script was crafted around the demands of the director/producer.

I never said that the story was the genesis of the flaws in the first TF film. I said I don't believe Bay was totally at fault for all of those flaws, as you appear to be suggesting, because some of those flaws were already in the script. That's not to say it all came from the script, just that Bay's not alone in causing them. A faithful adaptation starts with the script, not just a reflection of the project as a whole. After all, if the writers aren't getting the characters right in the first place, then how would you expect the director to?

As for some problems in the story that made it a bad script, here's two points just off the top of my head... What was the point of taking the Allspark to "Mission City", other than to have the final climatic battle of the film take place in a city, endangering millions of people for no reason? Orci and Kurtzman seem to do that a lot with the scripts that they write, where they'll do something simply because it'd look cool, but really not have any explanation behind it for the story. Or how about when Sam explains Megatron's plan is to use the Allspark to turn Earth's technology into an army? Even if Sam is just making that assumption (because how would he know Megatron's plans?), it doesn't make sense. Sam knows all to well at that point of the film Megatron was discovered by his great-great grandfather in 1897. Not to mention, Simmons said much of their modern technology was backwards engineered from Megatron while they kept him on ice. What Earth technology would Megatron have had to transform into an army in the 19th century? If you actually go back through the story, you'll certainly find more problems with the script.

Yeah, I'm going to bring up his work in genre material over straight drama since that's where this new project is, action and soft sci-fi genre. He wrote the scripts to these genre films, many of which were middling or downright dogs:
Batman Forever
Batman & Robin
Lost in Space
Practical Magic
I, Robot
The Da Vinci Code
I Am Legend
Angels & Demons (the Da Vinci Code sequel)
Winter's Tale
Insurgent

So it matters, it weighs heavily on this project beyond his work on 5 dramas, 2 of which are acclaimed, and 7 episodes of a tv show.

Again I'd have to disagree with you about some of those films, but that's besides the point here. Certainly those films matter, I never said they didn't. But again, it seems like you just keep trying to dismiss any success he's had as a writer, like that doesn't matter and are only focusing on negative. Winning an Oscar is a big deal, no matter what category it's in. And besides those two dramas, he was also nominated for a HUGO award for best dramatic presentation short form with his work on an episode of Fringe, which was a sci-fi series I'd point out. The guy clearly has some talent as a writer, as much as you seem to want to deny that.

Shockwave wrote:Jesus Christ, what ever happened to just having ONE WRITER!!?? See, I think this is the problem right here, too many damned cooks in the kitchen. It's like they're calling every intern with a random thought a writer. This right here is what makes a shitty movie.

To my understanding, they aren't just going to be working on Transformers 5, but several spin-off projects as well. I guess they sort of want to take a page from the Marvel films book, to develop several different films that are linked together by common plot threads.
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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby Onslaught Six » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:52 am

As for some problems in the story that made it a bad script, here's two points just off the top of my head... What was the point of taking the Allspark to "Mission City", other than to have the final climatic battle of the film take place in a city, endangering millions of people for no reason? Orci and Kurtzman seem to do that a lot with the scripts that they write, where they'll do something simply because it'd look cool, but really not have any explanation behind it for the story. Or how about when Sam explains Megatron's plan is to use the Allspark to turn Earth's technology into an army? Even if Sam is just making that assumption (because how would he know Megatron's plans?), it doesn't make sense. Sam knows all to well at that point of the film Megatron was discovered by his great-great grandfather in 1897. Not to mention, Simmons said much of their modern technology was backwards engineered from Megatron while they kept him on ice. What Earth technology would Megatron have had to transform into an army in the 19th century? If you actually go back through the story, you'll certainly find more problems with the script.


I was curious about some of this stuff and how it actually played in the original script. Which I have! And which is way better than the actual movie. I remember 86 and I reading this months before the actual film came out and being really really excited.

Here's a link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ywwrok53qx106 ... t.pdf?dl=0

ven if Sam is just making that assumption (because how would he know Megatron's plans?), it doesn't make sense. Sam knows all to well at that point of the film Megatron was discovered by his great-great grandfather in 1897. Not to mention, Simmons said much of their modern technology was backwards engineered from Megatron while they kept him on ice. What Earth technology would Megatron have had to transform into an army in the 19th century? If you actually go back through the story, you'll certainly find more problems with the script.


Yeah, that's still there. Nothing better. Maybe if I go back a little further, or a little later...

Aha! During Megatron and Starscream's initial conversation, Starscream's line is, "We are ready to transform the machines." So this is definitely Megatron's plan. (How much that makes sense with the whole 1920s thing is still up for debate.)

Also, I went back, during Prime and Sam's initial meeting (page 62) he definitely says that Megatron's plan is to use the Allspark to convert random technology into Decepticons. So...yeah. Sam knows that because Prime tells him, in the script. Must've got cut or rewritten--Orci and Kurtzman have a bad habit of throwing shit in and then cutting or rewriting parts but not fixing the loose ends.

As for some problems in the story that made it a bad script, here's two points just off the top of my head... What was the point of taking the Allspark to "Mission City", other than to have the final climatic battle of the film take place in a city, endangering millions of people for no reason?


I'm reading the relevant parts of the script now (around page 94) and there really isn't any true justification given for why they go to the city--although presumably, it's like right there. The focus really seems to be more on getting the Allspark (Energon Cube in the script) out of the dam and away from Megatron. Considering that the other Autobots just join Bumblebee and the S7 dudes on the highway, I think the implication is more like Mission City is just a coincidental battleground--they were trying to get away and there was a city right there.

I have less problems with this concept than other people do.

Man, reading this script is great and actually shows that with a better director or editor, even TF07 would be a fantastic film. There's numerous callbacks and things that tie together that make a lot more sense--for example, the throwaway football tryout gag from the finished film pops back up in the end sequence where Sam is running from Megatron while holding the Allspark, and that's kind of brilliant.

Prime also outright tells Sam to shove the Allspark into Megatron's spark--a contrast from the movie where he wants Sam to sacrifice Prime to destroy it, but which will obviously leave Megatron pissed off that the Allspark is gone AND with no Optimus Prime to kick his ass later. That part of logic DID always bug me, and it's funny to see that in this script, it wasn't even a problem.

(There is also a reference earlier to "mutant Witwicky gene" which says something that someone involved with this script was more on the pulse of the fandom than you would imagine. And there's also that awesome Chinese language joke that got cut. Also, Prime's "my bad" line seems like it was added as a response to Sam saying it a few lines earlier in the script, and then they cut Sam saying it, so Prime just gets it from nowhere. Ugh.)

So yeah, I guess there's not really any better explanations for those bits. The script is still slightly better though!
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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby andersonh1 » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:56 am

It's been awhile since I watched the first movie, but wasn't the point of going to the city to pick up something to call for help? All the communication equipment at the dam was fried so they had to look elsewhere? Hence we see the scene where the army get the walkie talkies from the pawn shop and the one guy was like "what am I supposed to do with these?"
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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby Onslaught Six » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:58 am

You have a point there too.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.


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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby Sparky Prime » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:51 pm

Onslaught Six wrote:Yeah, that's still there. Nothing better. Maybe if I go back a little further, or a little later...

Aha! During Megatron and Starscream's initial conversation, Starscream's line is, "We are ready to transform the machines." So this is definitely Megatron's plan. (How much that makes sense with the whole 1920s thing is still up for debate.)

The 1890's is when Megatron was discovered on Earth and he'd probably been there a lot longer than that. I recall they mentioned in the film they'd carbon dated the Allspark as being there since something like 10000BC. There definitely wouldn't have been any technology Megatron could have converted that far back. Nothing about that plan makes sense.

--Orci and Kurtzman have a bad habit of throwing shit in and then cutting or rewriting parts but not fixing the loose ends.

Exactly, their script isn't without faults of its own.

I'm reading the relevant parts of the script now (around page 94) and there really isn't any true justification given for why they go to the city--although presumably, it's like right there. The focus really seems to be more on getting the Allspark (Energon Cube in the script) out of the dam and away from Megatron

Getting the Allspark away from Megatron is all well and good but the city was 22 miles away from the dam (as said in the film). Not exactly right there, but not really all that far either. The Decepticons would undoubtedly track them down there, endangering millions of people. The military guys should know better than to put civilians in harms way like that and the Autobots should object to a situation where humans would be injured given Optimus' speech about it not being their war.

andersonh1 wrote:It's been awhile since I watched the first movie, but wasn't the point of going to the city to pick up something to call for help? All the communication equipment at the dam was fried so they had to look elsewhere? Hence we see the scene where the army get the walkie talkies from the pawn shop and the one guy was like "what am I supposed to do with these?"

The Secretary of Defense, Glen, Simmons and Maggie all stayed behind at the dam so that they could contact the air force with some of the old equipment that they already had there. The walkie talkies the group in the city picked up was just so they could coordinate their efforts with the air force the first group had called in for them. So they really didn't need to go anywhere to call for help.
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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby JediTricks » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:59 pm

andersonh1 wrote:It's been awhile since I watched the first movie, but wasn't the point of going to the city to pick up something to call for help? All the communication equipment at the dam was fried so they had to look elsewhere? Hence we see the scene where the army get the walkie talkies from the pawn shop and the one guy was like "what am I supposed to do with these?"
They are trying to meet with extraction helicopters in Mission City, and I think the communication equipment they are looking for is short-range to signal the choppers and the rest of the team, not to call for extraction which they assumed would happen.
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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby JediTricks » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:25 pm

Akiva Goldsman has moved on from TF to GI Joe and Micronauts movie writers rooms:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/11/22/ ... ters-rooms

Man, Hasbro is putting so many eggs into this cinematic basket, despite only Transformers being a real success and not thanks remotely to the writers-room premise. I guess everybody wants to be the next Marvel. Taking the helmer off your biggest franchise before he's even written the movie is... daring.
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Re: I think doing several newer TF Movies each year,is a mis

Postby Onslaught Six » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:46 pm

The phrase "cinematic universe" is beginning to grate on me more than any other in the English language.
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