What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie toys.

Money, violence, sex, computer graphics, scatalogical humor, racism, robots designed to be rednecks but given European accents, and maybe another sequel to the saga... what's not to love? TF m1, Revenge of the Fallen, Dark of the Moon and now Age of Extinction.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

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Onslaught Six wrote:It could very well be that Optimus Prime considers Earth the Autobots' new home, and to hell with the unrebuildable Cybertron. His repeated narrations at the end of every movie as an open invitation for other Autobots to come there seems to indicate so.
Yes, Optimus calls Earth a new home, but that's the thing... Why don't the Autobots even try to rebuild Cybertron without the Allspark? If the Decepticons of all Cybertronians still have hope and are actively trying to revive their home planet, why aren't the Autobots? It doesn't cast the Autobots in a good light for giving up so easily on their home planet while the BAD GUYS haven't (albeit through plots that would sacrifice another planet).
I'm not sure what Megatron and Sentinel's plan was with the last one though--bring Cybertron to Earth and...crash it into the planet?
To use humanity as slave labor to rebuild Cybertron. Though you'd think it would have been easier to send humans to Cybertron rather than bring Cybertron to Earth...
Seriously, through the entire movie trilogy, no Autobot goes out of his way to save a human that isn't Sam, Mikaela/Carly, any other human character they interact heavily with (Simmons, Leo, etc.) or an Army/NEST guy. Not once!
The Autobots went out of their way to save the entire planet's population. Twice. But in speaking in terms of individuals... Civilians had the good sense to run away during the battles in populated areas. Sam and company stayed in the thick of things.
And the point in getting Sam to work with the Decepticons was...to lure the Autobots into giving them information. They used Sam to try and get information out of the Autobots; they kidnapped Carly and enslaved (basically) Sam in order to do that. Sure, it didn't work, but hey.
The point being, that's not something having 'Bee as a guardian would have prevented, particularly as it wasn't a Decepticon that forced Sam into that situation but a human working on the Decepticon's behalf - Something nobody thought the Decepticons had.
I was talking more about earlier in the movie, when they used a Pretender to infiltrate Sam's school, and then just happened to have Grindor pick up the car that Sam and his friends were in.
Sam wasn't on the run in hiding at that point of the film, which is the part of the film JediTricks was referring to.
Obviously there's a time skip in there
No there isn't. Not when he goes after Uncle Ben's killer.
I'm sure the government could pull some strings to get him into the college. Unfortunately, the world is run by money, and if the government hands Princeton a big fat grant in exchange for allowing one measly slacker kid attendence? You can bet they'd take that.
I can't see the government pulling strings to get him into an Ivy League college. As another Bay movie says, the government tends to go more towards the lowest bidder, not the top tier. And the Witwicky's seem like the type they'd have been happy with Sam getting a regular state college education for free.
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

Post by Onslaught Six »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Onslaught Six wrote:It could very well be that Optimus Prime considers Earth the Autobots' new home, and to hell with the unrebuildable Cybertron. His repeated narrations at the end of every movie as an open invitation for other Autobots to come there seems to indicate so.
Yes, Optimus calls Earth a new home, but that's the thing... Why don't the Autobots even try to rebuild Cybertron without the Allspark? If the Decepticons of all Cybertronians still have hope and are actively trying to revive their home planet, why aren't the Autobots? It doesn't cast the Autobots in a good light for giving up so easily on their home planet while the BAD GUYS haven't (albeit through plots that would sacrifice another planet).
Given that we're never shown Cybertron (in the present day) it's hard to say how "inhabitable" it is or how much work there would need to be done. Obviously the idea of repopulating it with new Transformers is part of the goal, but if they can't do that, what sense is there in trying to rebuild an entire world with a handful of Autobots (There are never more than a dozen shown alive and together at any single point, even if you count Wheelie and Brains) when they can live out their existence on Earth?

I mean, they could leave the humans to possible threat by Decepticons, or they could go and...rebuild a dead world for absolutely no reason. With no resources, I'll add! They'd be just as well off to load everyone into the Xantium and find a new, uncolonized planet than to rebuild Cybertron. At no point during the series are the Autobots 100% sure that the Decepticons Are All Dead, so they still have a job to do on Earth anyway. If there was a guarantee that they had all been taken care of (a trophy room full of heads would probably suffice for Murderous Prime) then maybe Prime would turn his efforts to rebuilding Cybertron, but as it is? Nope.
To use humanity as slave labor to rebuild Cybertron. Though you'd think it would have been easier to send humans to Cybertron rather than bring Cybertron to Earth...
Unless the Decepticons had no intention of rebuilding Cybertron in the first place, but instead using the humans to 'tear apart Cybertron' and 'attach pieces of it to Earth.' Maybe they weren't going to rebuild Cybertron, but rebuild Earth in Cybertron's image. (I might be partial to this given that 86 and I had the idea in 2004ish, but we're never really given any indication either way.)
The Autobots went out of their way to save the entire planet's population. Twice. But in speaking in terms of individuals... Civilians had the good sense to run away during the battles in populated areas. Sam and company stayed in the thick of things.
Or maybe the Autobots just didn't give a fuck about civilians. In the first movie, Ironhide blatantly jumps over one and even fires his cannons just a few feet away from her so he can do a WOAH SLOW MOTION FLIP rather than, say, push her out of the way, or cover her from Decepticon fire. Compare this to, say, MTMTE part 1, where Prime goes out of his way to save Spike and Sparkplug before he ever knows who they are.

Fact is, this is the movie franchise and you can't just assume that things are true here like they are in other continuities. Weird shit like the Decepticon hatchlings is proof of that.
The point being, that's not something having 'Bee as a guardian would have prevented, particularly as it wasn't a Decepticon that forced Sam into that situation but a human working on the Decepticon's behalf - Something nobody thought the Decepticons had.
The point is that they used Sam's girlfriend to get Sam to do what they wanted him to do, which was...manipulate the Autobots! It was an example. They could have just as easily just kidnapped Sam and forced Prime to leave the planet, or they'd kill him.
Sam wasn't on the run in hiding at that point of the film, which is the part of the film JediTricks was referring to.
JT was referring to the Decepticons hiding and running, which they're doing from the end of the 2007 film onwards. (Seriously, both sequels begin almost exactly the same, with the "Decepticons being in hiding from Autobots working with the government." If not for Wheelie being around, you could almost ignore ROTF entirely.)
No there isn't. Not when he goes after Uncle Ben's killer.
All he does is chase after the guy and punch him! Also, the movie truncates the whole period where Spidey is a pro wrestler, since earlier adaptations (namely the 90s animated series) made it seem like it was a lot longer, over a period of several months. (James Cameron's 90s Spiderman script does the same thing, subbing in pro wrestling for magic shows and variety comedy gigs on TV over a few months--this script largely became the Spidey movie with some rewriting.)

Incidentally, Peter's motivation for going to the wrestling match in the film is to get some cash so he can buy a car and impress the girl, which is pretty much Sam's whole motivation at the beginning of TF1!
I can't see the government pulling strings to get him into an Ivy League college. As another Bay movie says, the government tends to go more towards the lowest bidder, not the top tier. And the Witwicky's seem like the type they'd have been happy with Sam getting a regular state college education for free.
But when it comes to some bratty kid who has the knowledge of giant alien robots on his side? Giant alien robots which could, probably at Sam's urging, blow the government the fuck up? (Seriously, the way the humans talk to the Transformers in the movies is hilarious. It's like they don't realize they could be squished at any moment.)
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

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Onslaught Six wrote:Given that we're never shown Cybertron (in the present day) it's hard to say how "inhabitable" it is or how much work there would need to be done.
Did you actually see Dark of the Moon? I'm starting to wonder...

We clearly see Cybertron as it is being transported to Earth in DOTM... And it's not like there were any large chunks of the planet missing. What we saw of the planet from orbit was intact. Plus, if the Decepticons expected humans to work there, it would have to be able to support human life. Not much point of enslaving a workforce that can't survive there.
Obviously the idea of repopulating it with new Transformers is part of the goal, but if they can't do that, what sense is there in trying to rebuild an entire world with a handful of Autobots (There are never more than a dozen shown alive and together at any single point, even if you count Wheelie and Brains) when they can live out their existence on Earth?
Why live as refugees if they can rebuild their home? Besides, the movies give the impression the Transformers spread out across the universe looking for the Allspark. There probably are a lot of them still out there. The Autobots (and Decepticons) do keep slowly adding more to their ranks with each movie after all. And it's entirely possible some of Cybertron's population may have stayed on Cybertron itself.
I mean, they could leave the humans to possible threat by Decepticons, or they could go and...rebuild a dead world for absolutely no reason. With no resources, I'll add! They'd be just as well off to load everyone into the Xantium and find a new, uncolonized planet than to rebuild Cybertron. At no point during the series are the Autobots 100% sure that the Decepticons Are All Dead, so they still have a job to do on Earth anyway. If there was a guarantee that they had all been taken care of (a trophy room full of heads would probably suffice for Murderous Prime) then maybe Prime would turn his efforts to rebuilding Cybertron, but as it is? Nope.
I'm not saying the Autobots should just abandon Earth. Obviously 10 or so Autobots wouldn't be able to do much by themselves. But the point I'm making is that the Autobots don't even *talk* about any possibilities Cybertron can be rebuilt, unlike the Decepticons who are clearly still trying. For instance, couldn't they salvage the Sun Harvester (or at least figure out how to build a new one) and find a star with out a populated planet? Or, if the essence of the Allspark truely was transferred to the Matrix of Leadership, couldn't they then use that to rebuild Cybertron? Or maybe probe some of the Allspark's knowledge for some other alternatives? Maybe humanity could help them out in some way?

And being able to rebuild your home planet should be plenty of reason.
Unless the Decepticons had no intention of rebuilding Cybertron in the first place, but instead using the humans to 'tear apart Cybertron' and 'attach pieces of it to Earth.' Maybe they weren't going to rebuild Cybertron, but rebuild Earth in Cybertron's image. (I might be partial to this given that 86 and I had the idea in 2004ish, but we're never really given any indication either way.)
Yeah, except the movie explicitly says that they intend on using the humans as slave labor to rebuild Cybertron, not tear it down and rebuild it on Earth. More likely Earth would be used up as raw resources.
Or maybe the Autobots just didn't give a fuck about civilians. In the first movie, Ironhide blatantly jumps over one and even fires his cannons just a few feet away from her so he can do a WOAH SLOW MOTION FLIP rather than, say, push her out of the way, or cover her from Decepticon fire. Compare this to, say, MTMTE part 1, where Prime goes out of his way to save Spike and Sparkplug before he ever knows who they are.
Ironhide *was* covering her by flipping over her, putting *himself* between her and the Decepticons. If he'd pushed her out of the way she would have still been exposed to Decepticon fire as evident by the shots and explosions around her. And clearly she was in no danger from him shooting his cannons.
Fact is, this is the movie franchise and you can't just assume that things are true here like they are in other continuities. Weird shit like the Decepticon hatchlings is proof of that.
Fact is, the Autobots make it their top priority and put their lives on the line to protect humans in the movie franchise as well. Optimus makes several speeches about it, in-particular during the first movie when Ironhide questions Optimus about protecting humans.
The point is that they used Sam's girlfriend to get Sam to do what they wanted him to do, which was...manipulate the Autobots! It was an example. They could have just as easily just kidnapped Sam and forced Prime to leave the planet, or they'd kill him.
Except, again, it wasn't to manipulate the Autobots at all. They were using Sam as espionage, not to lure the Autobots into doing anything. Plus it was Dylan who wasn't on anyone's radar to be working with the Decepticons until that point. It makes it a very different operation than you're talking about.

And I really doubt the Autobots would simply leave if the Decepticons only kidnapped Sam. The stakes would have to be a little bit more believable.
JT was referring to the Decepticons hiding and running, which they're doing from the end of the 2007 film onwards. (Seriously, both sequels begin almost exactly the same, with the "Decepticons being in hiding from Autobots working with the government." If not for Wheelie being around, you could almost ignore ROTF entirely.)
Ah, my bad. Still, JT is right the Decepticons clearly had their hands full trying to keep themselves hidden and had to resort to Wheelie to keep an eye on Sam.
All he does is chase after the guy and punch him!
No, there is much more to it than that. First there is a fairly lengthy car chase scene, involving Spidey really webslinging for the first time, plus avoiding road hazards and gun shots until he gets the guy to crash into a gate. Then he sneaks around a warehouse until he finally confronts the guy. Not to mention slipping out with out police seeing him. For a guy who isn't even used to his powers yet, that's a feat.
Also, the movie truncates the whole period where Spidey is a pro wrestler, since earlier adaptations (namely the 90s animated series) made it seem like it was a lot longer, over a period of several months.
In the movie it's only the one fight. It's very clear on that.
But when it comes to some bratty kid who has the knowledge of giant alien robots on his side? Giant alien robots which could, probably at Sam's urging, blow the government the fuck up? (Seriously, the way the humans talk to the Transformers in the movies is hilarious. It's like they don't realize they could be squished at any moment.)
Aliens that promised they'd leave the planet if the government asked them to, and most of which work with the government rather than Sam. Besides, who is going to believe Sam if he talked? He's already seen by most people as an oddball. And given his family history with his grandpa going insane...
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

Post by Onslaught Six »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Onslaught Six wrote:Given that we're never shown Cybertron (in the present day) it's hard to say how "inhabitable" it is or how much work there would need to be done.
Did you actually see Dark of the Moon? I'm starting to wonder...

We clearly see Cybertron as it is being transported to Earth in DOTM... And it's not like there were any large chunks of the planet missing. What we saw of the planet from orbit was intact. Plus, if the Decepticons expected humans to work there, it would have to be able to support human life. Not much point of enslaving a workforce that can't survive there.
We see it FROM ORBIT! We never see if there's any structures intact. We don't see any cities. We don't see anything but some weird hexagonal patterns that make Cybertron look like a friggin' beehive. For all we know, the planet had radiation poisoning or some shit ala IDW (although that didn't seem to stop the Autobots in AHM, but I still maintain that was McCarthy retconning a dumb idea of Furman's, and we later got the Alpha Trion explanation.)
Why live as refugees if they can rebuild their home? Besides, the movies give the impression the Transformers spread out across the universe looking for the Allspark. There probably are a lot of them still out there. The Autobots (and Decepticons) do keep slowly adding more to their ranks with each movie after all. And it's entirely possible some of Cybertron's population may have stayed on Cybertron itself.
It's possible, but who knows how they would've been affected by the Ark pillar transport thing?

Also, how do we know they could rebuild it? Like I said--why bother?
I'm not saying the Autobots should just abandon Earth. Obviously 10 or so Autobots wouldn't be able to do much by themselves. But the point I'm making is that the Autobots don't even *talk* about any possibilities Cybertron can be rebuilt, unlike the Decepticons who are clearly still trying. For instance, couldn't they salvage the Sun Harvester (or at least figure out how to build a new one) and find a star with out a populated planet? Or, if the essence of the Allspark truely was transferred to the Matrix of Leadership, couldn't they then use that to rebuild Cybertron? Or maybe probe some of the Allspark's knowledge for some other alternatives? Maybe humanity could help them out in some way?
The whole "Allspark being transferred to the Matrix" isn't explained well in the films, if it's even mentioned. It never comes up.

I don't see why they need to rebuild Cybertron. Why? It's dead. They have a nice cushy bright planet to live on. Fuck it. If that makes the Autobots "less heroic" or some BS like that...well, I don't know if *you've* actually seen Dark of the Moon, but the Autobots ain't exactly heroic.
And being able to rebuild your home planet should be plenty of reason.
Why? Sentimental value? It's a useless resource at this point. What purpose would it serve?
Yeah, except the movie explicitly says that they intend on using the humans as slave labor to rebuild Cybertron, not tear it down and rebuild it on Earth. More likely Earth would be used up as raw resources.
Find the dialogue and I'll believe it. (And even then, it's questionable, because it's DOTM.)
Ironhide *was* covering her by flipping over her, putting *himself* between her and the Decepticons. If he'd pushed her out of the way she would have still been exposed to Decepticon fire as evident by the shots and explosions around her. And clearly she was in no danger from him shooting his cannons.
Or maybe the movie Autobots are assholes.
Fact is, the Autobots make it their top priority and put their lives on the line to protect humans in the movie franchise as well. Optimus makes several speeches about it, in-particular during the first movie when Ironhide questions Optimus about protecting humans.
Prime just tells Ironhide that they don't harm humans, he doesn't say anything about protecting them.
Except, again, it wasn't to manipulate the Autobots at all. They were using Sam as espionage, not to lure the Autobots into doing anything. Plus it was Dylan who wasn't on anyone's radar to be working with the Decepticons until that point. It makes it a very different operation than you're talking about.
Oh for fuck's sake.

They were trying to get information out of the Autobots. They used Sam to do it. What part of that is hard to understand? This is stupid.
And I really doubt the Autobots would simply leave if the Decepticons only kidnapped Sam. The stakes would have to be a little bit more believable.
I think you're underestimating just how central a character Sam is to these movies. The Autobots would leave if he was kidnapped and the Decepticons said, "Leave or the kid dies." Why? Because Sam is the main character.

Unfortunately the TF films aren't very well written and if that's the reason they leave, then that's why they leave. Because The Bay Decrees It.
Ah, my bad. Still, JT is right the Decepticons clearly had their hands full trying to keep themselves hidden and had to resort to Wheelie to keep an eye on Sam.
They also sent Alice, and once they had Megatron back, they didn't have all that much problem finding him.
No, there is much more to it than that. First there is a fairly lengthy car chase scene, involving Spidey really webslinging for the first time, plus avoiding road hazards and gun shots until he gets the guy to crash into a gate. Then he sneaks around a warehouse until he finally confronts the guy. Not to mention slipping out with out police seeing him. For a guy who isn't even used to his powers yet, that's a feat.
This is a dumb argument.
In the movie it's only the one fight. It's very clear on that.
Yes...that's what I said. The movie truncates that whole period of Spidey's history to One Fight; in most other adaptations it's way longer and thus more believable that he'd get better at it.
Aliens that promised they'd leave the planet if the government asked them to, and most of which work with the government rather than Sam. Besides, who is going to believe Sam if he talked? He's already seen by most people as an oddball. And given his family history with his grandpa going insane...
Except the government totally asks the Autobots to leave in ROTF, and they don't, at all. The only reason they leave in DOTM is because Sentinel threatens to Kill All Humans.

Nobody might believe Sam if he talked, but like I said, it's hard to refute hard evidence...like a big rig turning into a robot on The Colbert Report. Simmons writes a book and gets called a hack on TV, but the moment John Malkovich sees Bumblebee in Sam's (ridiculous) apartment, he's a believer.
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

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1- The Decepticons don't care about fixing up Cybertron & making it habitable full of transformers. The decepticons are the ones who are to blame for destroying cybetron. megatron's goal has always been to destroy cybertron & then to rebuild it into the ultimate weapon with rocket boosters attached to it. so megatron can control cybertron like a gigantic ship & use it to destroy planets in his path.

2- Their is absolutely no proof planet cybertron got destroyed nor even entered the space bridge in the DOTM movie. from my viewing of the DOTM movie,It looked like cybertron didn't even go thru the space bridge but was preparing to go thru but never did go thru.

2a- had cybertron gone thru the space bridge & entered earth's orbit in the DOTM movie. it would have ripped the planet earth & it's moon to shreds. you can't just place any new planet+moon in a planets orbit. the ending result is always doom.
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

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Onslaught Six wrote:We see it FROM ORBIT! We never see if there's any structures intact. We don't see any cities. We don't see anything but some weird hexagonal patterns that make Cybertron look like a friggin' beehive. For all we know, the planet had radiation poisoning or some shit ala IDW (although that didn't seem to stop the Autobots in AHM, but I still maintain that was McCarthy retconning a dumb idea of Furman's, and we later got the Alpha Trion explanation.)
It wasn't all from orbit. They show one structure from the surface which is emitting a beam of some sort, apparently some part of the space bridge. And if you look close at the hexagon structures, there are lights within them, indicating those are the cities. And there's no reason to assume there is radiation poisoning like IDW.
It's possible, but who knows how they would've been affected by the Ark pillar transport thing?

Also, how do we know they could rebuild it? Like I said--why bother?
Why would they be affected by the pillar transport? Or do you mean after the transport failed and the planet appears to collapse in on itself?
The whole "Allspark being transferred to the Matrix" isn't explained well in the films, if it's even mentioned. It never comes up.
The Matrix is shown to bring Optimus back to life, and restore Sentinel, just like the Allspark was capable of.
I don't see why they need to rebuild Cybertron. Why? It's dead. They have a nice cushy bright planet to live on. Fuck it. If that makes the Autobots "less heroic" or some BS like that...well, I don't know if *you've* actually seen Dark of the Moon, but the Autobots ain't exactly heroic.
Why wouldn't they rebuild Cybertron? It's their home, and not beyond hope as the Decepticons are still trying to restore it. The Autobots fight to preserve their new home and the humans, why wouldn't try fight to rebuild their old one?
Why? Sentimental value? It's a useless resource at this point. What purpose would it serve?
It goes beyond sentimental value. Everything that they are comes from Cybertron, not Earth. Not to mention Cybertron is often shown to have various mystical artifacts to Cybertronians. I find it hard to believe they could so easily let that all go.
Find the dialogue and I'll believe it. (And even then, it's questionable, because it's DOTM.)
Of course, I have to keep filling in the blanks for you...
Or maybe the movie Autobots are assholes.
Despite all evidence to the contrary.
Prime just tells Ironhide that they don't harm humans, he doesn't say anything about protecting them.
Then why do they still put their lives on the line to save the human race in DOTM *after* they were asked to leave?
They were trying to get information out of the Autobots. They used Sam to do it. What part of that is hard to understand? This is stupid.
Which is it? Where they trying to manipulate the Autobots or get information from them? You keep changing your story. I've been refuting that they were trying to manipulate the Autobots, because that isn't what they were trying to do. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
I think you're underestimating just how central a character Sam is to these movies. The Autobots would leave if he was kidnapped and the Decepticons said, "Leave or the kid dies." Why? Because Sam is the main character.
If Shia LaBeouf doesn't return for the next film, as he has been saying, they'll just cast someone else for a new main character. The movies can and will carry on with out Sam. He's not *that* important that he has to be in it.
They also sent Alice, and once they had Megatron back, they didn't have all that much problem finding him.
They didn't send Alice until Wheelie signaled he detected the Allspark fragment. And Sam wasn't trying to hide at that point in the film.
This is a dumb argument.
You're the one that wanted to argue the point about Spider-Man when I was right about it in the first place.
Yes...that's what I said. The movie truncates that whole period of Spidey's history to One Fight; in most other adaptations it's way longer and thus more believable that he'd get better at it.
Well then you didn't say it very well. You seemed to be implying it was meant to be a longer period of time in the film.
Except the government totally asks the Autobots to leave in ROTF, and they don't, at all. The only reason they leave in DOTM is because Sentinel threatens to Kill All Humans.
They didn't ask the Autobots to leave in ROTF. All they said about it was if they'd asked the Autobots to leave would they leave in peace, to which Optimus said they would. And later they were forcibly shutting down the NEST team, Ratchet says he thought they should leave, but no one actually asked them to leave at that point.
Nobody might believe Sam if he talked, but like I said, it's hard to refute hard evidence...like a big rig turning into a robot on The Colbert Report. Simmons writes a book and gets called a hack on TV, but the moment John Malkovich sees Bumblebee in Sam's (ridiculous) apartment, he's a believer.
Now you're talking about stuff that happens *after* the Fallen announces the existence of Transformers to the world. Things changed after that point and the world became aware of them. Before that though, when Sam was going to college as we've been discussing here, the government was trying to keep their existence a secret.
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

Post by Onslaught Six »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Onslaught Six wrote:We see it FROM ORBIT! We never see if there's any structures intact. We don't see any cities. We don't see anything but some weird hexagonal patterns that make Cybertron look like a friggin' beehive. For all we know, the planet had radiation poisoning or some shit ala IDW (although that didn't seem to stop the Autobots in AHM, but I still maintain that was McCarthy retconning a dumb idea of Furman's, and we later got the Alpha Trion explanation.)
It wasn't all from orbit. They show one structure from the surface which is emitting a beam of some sort, apparently some part of the space bridge. And if you look close at the hexagon structures, there are lights within them, indicating those are the cities. And there's no reason to assume there is radiation poisoning like IDW.
This is debatable; if you ask me it looked more like those were side effects of bringing it through the portal. Notice that all those lights seem to die off when the portal temporarily disappears when they interrupt the pillars. (The fact that it just hangs there in space, instead of getting all fucked up and falling on Earth or splitting apart or something, shows what a stupid idea this whole thing is.)
Why would they be affected by the pillar transport? Or do you mean after the transport failed and the planet appears to collapse in on itself?
The former. We don't know how the pillars actually work and it's possible that the process somehow would kill or otherwise harm TFs on Cybertron--which, I'll remind you, the movies never say there's any TFs on Cybertron at all.
The Matrix is shown to bring Optimus back to life, and restore Sentinel, just like the Allspark was capable of.
There's that, but honestly I just thought they were inherent properties of the Matrix, not that it had somehow absorbed the Allspark energy. In fact, that's the entire reason they're looking for the Matrix in ROTF--Jetfire tells Sam that it's got energy within it to power the Sun Harvesters, and Sam figures out you could probably use that to revive Optimus. The Allspark energy never figures into it.
Why wouldn't they rebuild Cybertron? It's their home, and not beyond hope as the Decepticons are still trying to restore it. The Autobots fight to preserve their new home and the humans, why wouldn't try fight to rebuild their old one?
I think Deathy actually sort of has a leg to stand on--Megatron doesn't intend to revive it, he intends to turn it into a Warworld. (Or something. He's definitely not trying to create a sentient race, but Megatron's goals throughout the films are kind of...vaguely defined.)
It goes beyond sentimental value. Everything that they are comes from Cybertron, not Earth. Not to mention Cybertron is often shown to have various mystical artifacts to Cybertronians. I find it hard to believe they could so easily let that all go.
And I don't, since the movie Autobots are complete jerkfaces. That's the argument I'm making--the Movie Autobots Are Not Heroic At All. They don't save people. They don't want to restore their planet. For God's sake, they work for the government attacking terrorists!
Of course, I have to keep filling in the blanks for you...
What's that supposed to mean?
Or maybe the movie Autobots are assholes.
Despite all evidence to the contrary.
I've posted plenty of evidence, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who believes this to some degree. Sure, I'm maybe playing a little tongue in cheek with it, but honestly we're never actually shown in the films that the Autobots give one single damn about protecting the planet or humanity as a whole--they are fully interested in themselves and their buddies.
Then why do they still put their lives on the line to save the human race in DOTM *after* they were asked to leave?
If they wanted to save the human race, they would have shown up before the Decepticons destroyed half of Chicago. Instead, they waited until countless human lives were destroyed for no damn good reason. And Prime's first edict when they triumphantly return? It's not, "Protect the humans." It's, "Kill them all."
Which is it? Where they trying to manipulate the Autobots or get information from them? You keep changing your story. I've been refuting that they were trying to manipulate the Autobots, because that isn't what they were trying to do. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
But they were trying to manipulate the Autobots! Using Sam to get information out of them 'is manipulating them!'
If Shia LaBeouf doesn't return for the next film, as he has been saying, they'll just cast someone else for a new main character. The movies can and will carry on with out Sam. He's not *that* important that he has to be in it.
The next movies, sure, but whoever they replace will largely be the exact same kind of character. I'll bet you any cash.
They didn't send Alice until Wheelie signaled he detected the Allspark fragment. And Sam wasn't trying to hide at that point in the film.
He wasn't trying to hide in the beginning, either, and yet they had Wheelie there. Once Megatron was back, literally his first order of business is to find the human that killed him and have some worm robot tickle his brain.
Yes...that's what I said. The movie truncates that whole period of Spidey's history to One Fight; in most other adaptations it's way longer and thus more believable that he'd get better at it.
Well then you didn't say it very well. You seemed to be implying it was meant to be a longer period of time in the film.
I guess I must've.
They didn't ask the Autobots to leave in ROTF. All they said about it was if they'd asked the Autobots to leave would they leave in peace, to which Optimus said they would. And later they were forcibly shutting down the NEST team, Ratchet says he thought they should leave, but no one actually asked them to leave at that point.
Maybe you're right. I guess I should pay more attention to the dialogue in Michael Bay movies. :roll:
Now you're talking about stuff that happens *after* the Fallen announces the existence of Transformers to the world. Things changed after that point and the world became aware of them. Before that though, when Sam was going to college as we've been discussing here, the government was trying to keep their existence a secret.
Despite the Fallen apparently announcing the Transformers' existence, the guy interviewing Simmons still calls him a hack. Despite there being irrefutable evidence of the very thing Simmons is talking about.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

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Onslaught Six wrote:This is debatable; if you ask me it looked more like those were side effects of bringing it through the portal. Notice that all those lights seem to die off when the portal temporarily disappears when they interrupt the pillars. (The fact that it just hangs there in space, instead of getting all fucked up and falling on Earth or splitting apart or something, shows what a stupid idea this whole thing is.)
You can see the lights within the honeycomb structures during the sequence of the Ark leaving Cybertron as well. It's not an effect of the space bridge.
The former. We don't know how the pillars actually work and it's possible that the process somehow would kill or otherwise harm TFs on Cybertron--which, I'll remind you, the movies never say there's any TFs on Cybertron at all.
We see Decepticons jump through the space bridge portals on the moon to get to Earth with no ill effect. Why would it be any different for any Transformers that might be on Cybertron?
There's that, but honestly I just thought they were inherent properties of the Matrix, not that it had somehow absorbed the Allspark energy. In fact, that's the entire reason they're looking for the Matrix in ROTF--Jetfire tells Sam that it's got energy within it to power the Sun Harvesters, and Sam figures out you could probably use that to revive Optimus. The Allspark energy never figures into it.
Either way, if it's got the power to restore life to Transformers, just like the Allspark, doesn't that stand to reason it might be able to help with Cybertron?
I think Deathy actually sort of has a leg to stand on--Megatron doesn't intend to revive it, he intends to turn it into a Warworld. (Or something. He's definitely not trying to create a sentient race, but Megatron's goals throughout the films are kind of...vaguely defined.)
As Cybertron is being transported to Earth Megatron mutters something about Cybertron being saved at last. Warworld or not, he wants Cybertron restored.

And I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that he isn't trying to create a sentient race. He's shown raising baby Decepticons, not the mindless Allspark creations we'd previously seen.
And I don't, since the movie Autobots are complete jerkfaces. That's the argument I'm making--the Movie Autobots Are Not Heroic At All. They don't save people. They don't want to restore their planet. For God's sake, they work for the government attacking terrorists!
Oh, it's soooo terrible they help fight terrorists and put their own lives on the line to save the Earth and the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE from enslavement or death at the hands of the Decepticons. Yeah, not heroic at all. :roll:
What's that supposed to mean?
How many times have I had to correct you about details in the movies in the last few posts?
I've posted plenty of evidence,
You've posted plenty of inaccurate or misremembered things... I don't think that counts as evidence.
but honestly we're never actually shown in the films that the Autobots give one single damn about protecting the planet or humanity as a whole--they are fully interested in themselves and their buddies.
Then why do they even bother fighting back against the Decepticons in DOTM? They could have just left the planet. Even taken their buddies with them. But no. They stay and defend the planet from the Decepticons.
If they wanted to save the human race, they would have shown up before the Decepticons destroyed half of Chicago. Instead, they waited until countless human lives were destroyed for no damn good reason. And Prime's first edict when they triumphantly return? It's not, "Protect the humans." It's, "Kill them all."
Optimus said they had to prove to world that they need the Autobots help against the Decepticons. Yeah, it's not exactly the Autobot's finest way to prove themselves, but they're still there in the end to save the planet from enslavement. Not to mention there should be no doubt now that they need the Autobots help to fight the Decepticons.
But they were trying to manipulate the Autobots! Using Sam to get information out of them 'is manipulating them!'
No it isn't. Manipulation would be getting the Autobots to do something they want them to do, not forcing Sam to find out what the Autobots are planning for them.
The next movies, sure, but whoever they replace will largely be the exact same kind of character. I'll bet you any cash.
Bay claims he wants a different direction for the next film. We'll see.
He wasn't trying to hide in the beginning, either, and yet they had Wheelie there. Once Megatron was back, literally his first order of business is to find the human that killed him and have some worm robot tickle his brain.
Again, Wheelie was just watching in case something interesting happened. And Megatron's first order of business was to return to the Decepticon ship and talk to the Fallen, who informed him about the Allspark being downloaded into Sam's brain.
Maybe you're right. I guess I should pay more attention to the dialogue in Michael Bay movies.
That certainly would make this argument less tedious.
Despite the Fallen apparently announcing the Transformers' existence, the guy interviewing Simmons still calls him a hack. Despite there being irrefutable evidence of the very thing Simmons is talking about.
That would be Bill O'Reilly we're talking about here. He's got a reputation for accosting guests, putting his foot in his mouth and spreading misinformation.
Tigermegatron wrote:1- The Decepticons don't care about fixing up Cybertron & making it habitable full of transformers
Then why is the Decepticons plan in DOTM to use humans as slave labor to rebuild Cybertron?
The decepticons are the ones who are to blame for destroying cybetron. megatron's goal has always been to destroy cybertron & then to rebuild it into the ultimate weapon with rocket boosters attached to it. so megatron can control cybertron like a gigantic ship & use it to destroy planets in his path.
The civil war is to blame for the state Cybertron is in, not just the Decepticons. And the movies *never* say anything about Megatron wanting to turn Cybertron into a ship or weapon of any kind. They only talk about him wanting conquest somehow using the Allspark.
2- Their is absolutely no proof planet cybertron got destroyed nor even entered the space bridge in the DOTM movie.
You can see the space bridge portal as Cybertron comes through it. More than half the planet is on the other side when the main pillar is destroyed. And then Cybertron clearly is shown collapsing in on itself back through the portal.
2a- had cybertron gone thru the space bridge & entered earth's orbit in the DOTM movie. it would have ripped the planet earth & it's moon to shreds. you can't just place any new planet+moon in a planets orbit. the ending result is always doom.
This much is true, but that's just bad science on the movie's part.
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

Post by JediTricks »

Sparky Prime wrote:
JediTricks wrote:I cannot think of another significant action/adventure movie this vapid with its protagonist.
There are plenty of movies with these types of characters. How about Danny Madigan in "Last Action Hero"? Itself a movie that points out how ridiculously over the top action movies can be, even for people that have training by the way. And then there's Helen Tasker in "True Lies". Or John Conner in any Terminator movies aside from 'Salvation'. Barbara Wilson (Batgirl) in "Batman and Robin". Anakin Skywalker in "The Phantom Menence". Sure he has his pod racing experience and is strong with the Force, but with out any Jedi training or starfighter experience he gets extremely lucky during the final fight of the film. Heck, even Jar Jar Binks who is inexplicably named general of the Gungan army despite having zero experience or skill bumbles his way through the battle. Luke Skywalker in "A New Hope" is awfully lucky having only a few lessons from Obi Wan and little pilot experience. And unless political school on Naboo involves combat training, I doubt Padme would really know what to do in a combat situation, yet she seems capable of handling herself. Even something like Spider-Man, still being so new to his powers, I doubt he'd realistically be that effective at crime fighting right off the bat.
Really swinging for the fences with some of those examples.

- Last Action Hero was garbage, it's a bad movie, it's not a significant one (I know, I paid to see it in the theater), but IIRC, Danny (who is the sidekick, not the protagonist) has the knowledge of cinema to give him an edge.
- Helen Tasker in True Lies is being guided and coached by professional spies (at first she doesn't know it), really all she does on her own is get out of the way of major action and at one point throw a punch, the rest she's helped by Harry - such as escaping the limo.
- John Connor explains early in T2 that his whole life has been his mother training him for the coming apocalypse in survival, defense, strategy, and so forth.
- Ugh, really, Batman & Robin's version of Batgirl, we're going to dig that deep into the trash can? I cannot remember anything redeeming about her or that movie, but it is significant only in being expensively terrible.
- Baby Anakin Skywalker's luck is very bad, The Phantom Menace itself is a pretty miserable piece of crap movie in part for stuff like that, but Lucas actually didn't write Anakin to be so damned lucky, the script has lines to explain that he actually is making choices like the spinning trick based on his piloting skills. He's still lucky, but there's less of it. Why Lucas had those lines tossed (and I am pretty sure they were shot and edited out) I couldn't say.
- Jar Jar is another character that really doesn't help your argument, he's considered one of the worst pieces of shit in cinema, so to bolster your argument for Sam with that seems like arguing that horse turds aren't so bad because elephant turds are worse. Anyway, Jar Jar 100% lucks and bumbles his way through the film, there's no excuse for it except that, again, the movie is bad, but he's a Representative and a General pretty much because he was able to bring the 2 cultures together, and nobody I guess noticed that his battlefield successes were all goofs.
- We don't see how much training Luke gets, we don't know how long that journey aboard the Falcon is, but he's given broad strokes and uses them, it's not like we see Luke being a great Force user in the end of the film or the beginning of Empire Strikes Back -- Luke uses the Force to feel the right shot at the Death Star just as Obi-Wan taught him to use those feelings against the remote on the Falcon, but the rest of his Force skills come after he's trained for an unknown amount of time with Yoda in ESB.
- Padme's battle skills are mentioned as training from Captain Panaka, I don't remember if that's in the final cut of the movie or in the script and secondary elements, but I vaguely remember it from the film. It's thin, but it was always intended. And again, she's not a great movie character, TPM = sucks.
There are plenty of bad movies out there, and they are not all big budget corporate movies at that.
Yeah, but the ones that aren't backed by big corporate budgets and fall into that territory generally end up straight-to-video or straight-to-SyFy-Saturdays.
Anyway, I agree with you he's not that well written of a character and he's very shallow as he only one thing on his mind in the first movie, but there is a bit more too him than I think you're giving credit for. Such as, he does show some drive to be successful in school. He did have to get the grades in order for his parents to help him afford the car (as I recall Sam had to pay half, which I doubt he got all of just by peddling family heirlooms) and he was able to somehow get into an Ivy League College on his own merits.
He did have to pay for part of the car, they never even hinted at him having a job, and they did say he was already selling heirlooms when we get to the glasses among other things. The college thing I think someone else explains in the thread was from the government, and his grades were only supposed to be half-good, and he basically had to beg the teacher into giving him a pass there (which says nothing good about his teacher).
The Fallen could just as easily have wanted that Star Harvester power for his personal use, or to destroy the planet which wronged him before, or to start anew on a different world he could populate himself. Then again, nothing in ROTF made any damned sense anyway, and lots contradicted the first movie.
The Fallen didn't care about Earth. He intended on destroying it either way by harvesting the Sun's energy. Granted the movie wasn't that clear on what he intended to do with that energy, but what else would he do with it at that point? He was already said to be the most powerful in the Dynasty of Primes, and the only thing he feared was another Prime killing him. And the Decepticons really didn't show any interest in making another planet their home. Otherwise why not just conquer Earth? They seemed to have the resources for that already. They'd mentioned Megatron wanted the Allspark for conquest in the first place, but really all we saw was them trying to do was restore Cybertron.
They weren't remotely clear in the film what he wanted to do with that energy, but they made it clear that by using the harvester he'd be destroying the planet.

Onslaught Six wrote:
There are 7 billion humans on the planet, the Decepticons think of them as insects, does it really seem likely that they're going to be able to track ONE guy down while hiding and running, and with no true gain gathered from the action should they succeed?
They did it pretty damn well in the second movie.
They did it so well that one has to entirely discount it. Apparently they seeded Alice into that college BEFORE Sam gets there on the assumption that Sam actually will show up, and that he'd end up in her specific dorm, and that if he did end up in her dorm that he'd be interested in her, and that if he were interested in her that she could seduce him, and if he were interested and she seduced him that she'd be able to then extract the Cybertronian knowledge he had in his brain, although that of course also assumed that the Decepticons knew that AFTER Sam started packing for college that he'd end up being struck by the shard of the Allspark and that it'd affect him in that way, even though nobody actually knew the shard existed, so they must have been tracking him for revenge alone, but if they were able to find out so much about his plans they probably had a 'Con close enough to his personal life to have just killed him at any point before ROTF even started. And the Decepticons had to pull that all off while running and hiding from the Autobots and humans. What a stupid scenario. May as well chalk it up to an evil wizard.
THAT was really dumb, and I chalk that up more to Michael Bayifying the second film's script more than anything else.
I'm no expert on Bay films, having stomached only a few, but I cannot remember anything remotely like that in his previous films. He's more direct usually IMO, I suspect that was Ehren Kreuger or Orctzman (I can see it being Orci / Kurtzman based on some of the more ridiculous bullshit they crammed into the later portions of Hercules, Xena, and Alias).
"My dad said bring home 3 As and $2000. I got the $2000 and I got two As." Sam says this to his teacher giving him a B-. Sam obviously got the $2000 from somewhere, and at the beginning of the movie it's clear he hasn't sold even a fraction of the crap he's got from his family, so if you ask me he probably had a part-time job somewhere.
They showed no sign of him having a job, and I don't remember the film showing that he hadn't sold a fraction of the crap he was selling, but even if that were the case, for all we know it was just as likely from his bar-mitzvah money and he sold his Nintendo and conned his neighbors.
I still don't know why since all Prime did was punch the shit out of him and Mortal Kombat Fatality him. (Although some of the adaptations take care of that nicely, like the ones where Prime 'opens up a black hole and throws The Fallen into it.')
So nobody else could pick up The Fallen except Optimus, then? That's not a better fix!

Sparky Prime wrote:There is no reason for anyone to go to Cybertron in any of the movies, everything they're fighting for has been on Earth. As such there is absolutely nothing to indicate the habitability of Cybertron. They can survive in the vacuum of space for crying out loud.
The beginning of the first movie makes a clear statement as to Cybertron's habitability, and then the rest of the film Optimus brings it up including at the end. Why Cybertron is no longer habitable to them however is left unclear, but he says it is so it is, I guess they need more than barren rock to survive -- not that the moronic movies would bring up something like fighting over needed energy sources though, they leave that to 20-year-old children's shows which they claim are beneath them yet outthought them on a shoestring budget and told far more compelling and cohesive tales.
And again, the other movies make it apparent the Decepticons still believe they can rebuild Cybertron even with out the Allspark.
I don't remember anything of the sort in ROTF.

o6 wrote:Or at least you believe they would! It's interesting to note that in the films themselves, we never actually see an Autobot save a human that they don't already know. Prime tells the Autobots not to hurt the Sector Seven dudes in the first movie, but after that the only interaction with humans who aren't central characters seems to be when the Autobots are 'threatening terrorists' for a few seconds in DOTM.

Seriously, through the entire movie trilogy, no Autobot goes out of his way to save a human that isn't Sam, Mikaela/Carly, any other human character they interact heavily with (Simmons, Leo, etc.) or an Army/NEST guy. Not once!
Damn, that's true, they barely go out of their way to save the humans - look at the people in that shop in Shanghai! The first movie they cursorily attempt to show the Autobots saving people, but it's pretty thin.
and then just happened to have Grindor pick up the car that Sam and his friends were in
Oh snap, I forgot about that piece of miracle-tracking!

Sparky wrote:Yes, Optimus calls Earth a new home, but that's the thing... Why don't the Autobots even try to rebuild Cybertron without the Allspark? If the Decepticons of all Cybertronians still have hope and are actively trying to revive their home planet, why aren't the Autobots? It doesn't cast the Autobots in a good light for giving up so easily on their home planet while the BAD GUYS haven't (albeit through plots that would sacrifice another planet).
Well, we're not even clear on what's wrong with Cybertron, maybe the planet doesn't generate heat or energy anymore, or maybe the other robots who lived there are what OP is talking about and they can't merely rebuild them. Maybe Megatron pulled them all apart the way he did Jazz, and without the Allspark, the planet's inhabitants are what can't be revived.
No there isn't. Not when he goes after Uncle Ben's killer.
No, there is much more to it than that. First there is a fairly lengthy car chase scene, involving Spidey really webslinging for the first time, plus avoiding road hazards and gun shots until he gets the guy to crash into a gate. Then he sneaks around a warehouse until he finally confronts the guy. Not to mention slipping out with out police seeing him. For a guy who isn't even used to his powers yet, that's a feat.
Yeah, but it's not like he's super awesome at it, he does a few basic moves (which he had been shown practicing earlier) to get to Uncle Ben's Olds, he's shown not being terribly great at swinging in the scenes, using anger to push past the mistakes he makes, and then from there he uses the most basic moves to freak the guy out, only to have him accidentally kill himself, which isn't how Peter seems to want it to go down, showing he's not ready for prime-time as a superhero yet.

o6 wrote:Incidentally, Peter's motivation for going to the wrestling match in the film is to get some cash so he can buy a car and impress the girl, which is pretty much Sam's whole motivation at the beginning of TF1!
The only difference is that Peter is willing to work for his money! :mrgreen:

Sparky wrote:Fact is, the Autobots make it their top priority and put their lives on the line to protect humans in the movie franchise as well. Optimus makes several speeches about it, in-particular during the first movie when Ironhide questions Optimus about protecting humans.
Talk is cheap, we don't see the Autobots trying to contain the Decepticons' attacks away from the population in "Mission city", aside from Ironhide's flip which could have incinerated that woman for all he knew. And look at Optimus saving Sam from falling off that building, Sam is falling AFTER the chopper, Prime doesn't make any pretense to save the guys in the chopper that might have survived that shot NOR the people in the office buildings around there, he just goes after Sam and the Allspark, and the rest of the humans eat it in the face for all he cares. Hell, the Autobots don't even help fighting Blackout after Sam is out of the picture! And the little fighting Ironhide does with Blackout involves putting EVERYBODY at greater risk!

o6 wrote:They also sent Alice, and once they had Megatron back, they didn't have all that much problem finding him.
Evil wizardry, remember?

Sparky wrote:The Matrix is shown to bring Optimus back to life, and restore Sentinel, just like the Allspark was capable of.
Then again, unlike the Allspark, while it's reviving Optimus it also brings Sam back to life, and it's part of the power system for the Harvester, so it's not really consistently the same.
Then why do they still put their lives on the line to save the human race in DOTM *after* they were asked to leave?
It turns out to save their own asses, once The Fallen comes on the scene they either fight or die.
If Shia LaBeouf doesn't return for the next film, as he has been saying, they'll just cast someone else for a new main character. The movies can and will carry on with out Sam. He's not *that* important that he has to be in it.
Kinda makes you wonder, if that's the case, then WHY THE FUCK DID WE HAVE TO WATCH 9 HOURS OF THE LITTLE DOUCHEBAG?!? :lol: He's so important to telling a Transformers movie that we have 3 movies about him first and foremost, and then it turns out he's also entirely disposable once a 4th movie rolls along? Yeah, just proves to me how fucked up the priorities are of the people making these movies.
They didn't send Alice until Wheelie signaled he detected the Allspark fragment.
Then how was she already situated in the exact right place well ahead of time when Sam arrives? It's a thought-hole.

Sparky wrote:Oh, it's soooo terrible they help fight terrorists and put their own lives on the line to save the Earth and the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE from enslavement or death at the hands of the Decepticons. Yeah, not heroic at all. :roll:
It's not the same, we don't see them saving individuals, they would have fought the Decepticons on ANY planet regardless whether or not it was inhabited. If the Allspark had landed on Mars instead of Earth, the Autobots would have fought the Decepticons there instead.
Maybe you're right. I guess I should pay more attention to the dialogue in Michael Bay movies.
That certainly would make this argument less tedious.
Perhaps, but it'd make LIFE more tedious. :twisted:
Then why is the Decepticons plan in DOTM to use humans as slave labor to rebuild Cybertron?
Damn I am so glad I stuck to my guns and avoided seeing that movie.
The civil war is to blame for the state Cybertron is in, not just the Decepticons.
Ouch, doesn't paint the Autobots in a very heroic light. You're right too, but it makes the Autobots' claims self-serving, they are nearly as bad as the Decepticons, they want to repair their world in their image. If not for Optimus Prime telling Sam to jam the Allspark into his chest to destroy it, the Autobots wouldn't have a shred of nobility about their actions in this situation -- they leave Bumblebee to twist in the wind, they barely give a shit about Jazz being torn in 2, they have no compunction about destroying the humans' property to enact their goals. Christ, that's depressing, I'm glad I'm at the end of my post finally, that makes me dislike these movies even more.
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See, that one's a camcorder, that one's a camera, that one's a phone, and they're doing "Speak no evil, See no evil, Hear no evil", get it?
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Re: What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie to

Post by Sparky Prime »

JediTricks wrote:but IIRC, Danny (who is the sidekick, not the protagonist) has the knowledge of cinema to give him an edge.
Danny is the main character of the film. He just decides to play sidekick to Jack Slater once he gets sucked into the movie. And having knowledge about the movies doesn't give him an edge to perform those stunts himself.
Helen Tasker in True Lies is being guided and coached by professional spies (at first she doesn't know it), really all she does on her own is get out of the way of major action and at one point throw a punch, the rest she's helped by Harry - such as escaping the limo.
She's misguided by a guy who pretends to be a spy and then her own husband when he decides to have some fun with the situation. After they get kidnapped, she improvises quite a bit on her own though.
John Connor explains early in T2 that his whole life has been his mother training him for the coming apocalypse in survival, defense, strategy, and so forth.
His mom was placed in an insane asylum early in his life and he was in foster care. And he really doesn't show any signs of real training in T2 or T3. He just makes it up as they run away.
Ugh, really, Batman & Robin's version of Batgirl, we're going to dig that deep into the trash can? I cannot remember anything redeeming about her or that movie, but it is significant only in being expensively terrible.
As I recall she says she has self defense lessons, but that's hardly enough to be the caliber of fighter she is, let alone to be at a super hero level.
- Baby Anakin Skywalker's luck is very bad, The Phantom Menace itself is a pretty miserable piece of crap movie in part for stuff like that, but Lucas actually didn't write Anakin to be so damned lucky, the script has lines to explain that he actually is making choices like the spinning trick based on his piloting skills. He's still lucky, but there's less of it. Why Lucas had those lines tossed (and I am pretty sure they were shot and edited out) I couldn't say.
You mean lines like "I'll try spinning, that's a good trick!" No, the kid gets damn lucky. After his ship is shot (which would blow up any non-character) he ends up *inside* the droid control ship *right* next to the power generator, which is inside the hangar section for some unknown reason and after he *accidentally* shoots the thing, his ship has cooled down enough for him to safely fly back out. Pure luck.
- Jar Jar is another character that really doesn't help your argument, he's considered one of the worst pieces of shit in cinema,
The point here wasn't about whether or not it was a good character, the point was about characters having no training for these situation getting incredibly lucky in action movies. Which Jar Jar, among the others, is the perfect example of.
- We don't see how much training Luke gets, we don't know how long that journey aboard the Falcon is, but he's given broad strokes and uses them, it's not like we see Luke being a great Force user in the end of the film or the beginning of Empire Strikes Back -- Luke uses the Force to feel the right shot at the Death Star just as Obi-Wan taught him to use those feelings against the remote on the Falcon, but the rest of his Force skills come after he's trained for an unknown amount of time with Yoda in ESB.
Luke couldn't have had much training from Obi-Wan. A few hours maybe? And that from what we saw was just with a lightsaber. Yet he handles himself well with a blaster in the Deathstar and later in an X-Wing to blow the thing up.
- Padme's battle skills are mentioned as training from Captain Panaka, I don't remember if that's in the final cut of the movie or in the script and secondary elements, but I vaguely remember it from the film.
Can't say that I remember them saying that in any version I've seen.
He did have to pay for part of the car, they never even hinted at him having a job, and they did say he was already selling heirlooms when we get to the glasses among other things. The college thing I think someone else explains in the thread was from the government, and his grades were only supposed to be half-good, and he basically had to beg the teacher into giving him a pass there (which says nothing good about his teacher).
He's not going to get $2000 for heirlooms that nobody wants. The college thing, as I previously said, they only mention that the government pays for it. Not that they got him in as well.
The beginning of the first movie makes a clear statement as to Cybertron's habitability, and then the rest of the film Optimus brings it up including at the end. Why Cybertron is no longer habitable to them however is left unclear, but he says it is so it is, I guess they need more than barren rock to survive -- not that the moronic movies would bring up something like fighting over needed energy sources though, they leave that to 20-year-old children's shows which they claim are beneath them yet outthought them on a shoestring budget and told far more compelling and cohesive tales.
Optimus Prime opening narration wrote:Before time began, there was the Cube. We know not where it comes from, only that it holds the power to create worlds and fill them with life. That is how our race was born. For a time, we lived in harmony. But like all great power, some wanted it for good, others for evil. And so began the war. A war that ravaged our planet until it was consumed by death, and the Cube was lost to the far reaches of space. We scattered across the galaxy, hoping to find it and rebuild our home. Searching every star, every world. And just when all hope seemed lost, message of a new discovery drew us to an unknown planet called... Earth. But we were already too late...
Optimus Prime closing narration wrote:With the All Spark gone, we cannot return life to our planet. And fate has yielded its reward: a new world to call home. We live among its people now, hiding in plain sight, but watching over them in secret, waiting, protecting. I have witnessed their capacity for courage, and though we are worlds apart, like us, there's more to them than meets the eye. I am Optimus Prime, and I send this message to any surviving Autobots taking refuge among the stars. We are here. We are waiting.
I don't see anything here that makes a clear statement as to Cybertron's habitability.
I don't remember anything of the sort in ROTF.
The primary function of the Sun Harvester is to recharge the Allspark right? And what did they want to use the Allspark for...?
Yeah, but it's not like he's super awesome at it, he does a few basic moves (which he had been shown practicing earlier) to get to Uncle Ben's Olds, he's shown not being terribly great at swinging in the scenes, using anger to push past the mistakes he makes, and then from there he uses the most basic moves to freak the guy out, only to have him accidentally kill himself, which isn't how Peter seems to want it to go down, showing he's not ready for prime-time as a superhero yet.
He gets pretty good at the web-slinging pretty quickly. Really, after he nearly hits the first building, he doesn't seem to have any problem with it anymore. And he's able to sneak around like a pro- casting shadows to distract the guy, only showing up when he wants to confront him. Not to mention sneaking by police who show up only moments after they spot him at the window. It's too good for a first timer.
Talk is cheap, we don't see the Autobots trying to contain the Decepticons' attacks away from the population in "Mission city", aside from Ironhide's flip which could have incinerated that woman for all he knew. And look at Optimus saving Sam from falling off that building, Sam is falling AFTER the chopper, Prime doesn't make any pretense to save the guys in the chopper that might have survived that shot NOR the people in the office buildings around there, he just goes after Sam and the Allspark, and the rest of the humans eat it in the face for all he cares. Hell, the Autobots don't even help fighting Blackout after Sam is out of the picture! And the little fighting Ironhide does with Blackout involves putting EVERYBODY at greater risk!
It was Lennox's idea to take the Allspark to Mission City in the first place and hide it there! Who I'd point out as a trained soldier should know better himself. Why are you blaming the Autobots for that when they had no say in the matter? Ironhide's shot was well placed at point blank into the street. There is no way that could have incinerated that woman. The chopper was falling toward the building as I recall, the guys inside would be safer than Sam was, who was falling off the building. So save the guys that will probably be alright in the chopper or the kid who will go splat? And the Autobots are a bit outmatched by the Decepticons at that point.
Then again, unlike the Allspark, while it's reviving Optimus it also brings Sam back to life, and it's part of the power system for the Harvester, so it's not really consistently the same.
The Matrix was dust when Sam was brought back to life. It didn't reform until moments after. And considering the Allspark is meant to be recharged by the Sun Harvester, I'd say that keeps it consistent with the Allspark being part of the power system.
It turns out to save their own asses, once The Fallen comes on the scene they either fight or die.
That's not in DOTM...
Then how was she already situated in the exact right place well ahead of time when Sam arrives? It's a thought-hole.

Because Sam was still at his home on the other side of the country when he discovered the Allspark shard? The Decepticons would have had enough time to get Alice in place by the time he made it to his college.
It's not the same, we don't see them saving individuals, they would have fought the Decepticons on ANY planet regardless whether or not it was inhabited. If the Allspark had landed on Mars instead of Earth, the Autobots would have fought the Decepticons there instead.
So you'd say the Autobots aren't heroic just because we (arguably) don't see them actively saving individuals? The Autobots are saving millions of individual lives on Earth by staying to defend it from threats like terrorism or the Decepticons. How is that different? And what reason would they have to stay to defend Mars? No one lives there for it to need defending.

Man this thread is getting really drawn out....
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