crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

The IDW Comics universe has had such a different take on G1, one that's now significantly represented by the Generations toys, so they share a forum. A modern take on a Real Cybertronian Hero. Currently starring Generations toys, IDW "The Transformers" comics, MTMTE, TF vs GI Joe, and Windblade.

Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Shockwave » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:21 pm

Everything in this discussion relates back to Unicron and the crowdfunding effort behind it. Any analogies that don't relate to that are irrelevant. Yes, you CAN (CAN being the operative word there) get information about Unicron on non TF sites. I never implied otherwise. BUT, when looking specifically at who would be the target demographic for Unicron (and yes, that is actually the demand because we're specifically ONLY talking about people that want Unicron), the BEST (again, the operative word there) source of information for people that want a $600 Transformer is going to be websites about Transformers. Yes, they CAN get that elswhere, but the implication that it would be better than visiting an actual TF site (most of which have links to Hasbropulse's page) is ludicrous. That's not the way fandoms and fansites work. If you have an interest, and you want news about said interest, your BEST (I repeat BEST) source for that is sites relating to that specific interest. Which is why I said that MOST people who would be in the market (ie: the DEMAND) for a $600 Unicron are going to be people that visit TF sites regularly. That's it. That's my point. I'm not talking about the exceptions, the 1% that either missed it or got the information elsewhere, just the majority of people that backed it or would have backed it. THAT'S the demand for Unicron and this crowdfunding was a good way for Hasbro to measure that. Period. It's binary. There's only two conditions to the crowdfunding effort, success or failure. If it failed, Hasbro would know there's not enough demand for a $600 Unicron. It succeeded so now they know that there is. And knowing is half the battle!
User avatar
Shockwave
Supreme-Class
 
Posts: 5839
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Sparky Prime » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:14 am

Shockwave wrote:Everything in this discussion relates back to Unicron and the crowdfunding effort behind it. Any analogies that don't relate to that are irrelevant.

That's flat out false. I only brought up Mighty No 9 as an example AFTER had I disagreed with Dom for saying the crowdfunding "tests/confirms" demand. At that point, the discussion had already entered into a tangent that really didn't specifically directly have anything to do with Unicron or the crowdfunding effort behind it, as the discussion had become more about what constitutes demand, and how the crowdfunding effort does not necessarily reflect the sales for the product. The analogy is relevant. Also, I find it peculiar how you keep trying to find ways to just dismiss the analogy on some misconceived notion, rather than acknowledge or argue ANY of the actual reasons I had brought it up for in the first place. Again, the point of it was simply to illustrate an example where the interest in the kickstarter did not reflect the actual demand for the final product.

Yes, you CAN (CAN being the operative word there) get information about Unicron on non TF sites. I never implied otherwise.

Shockwave wrote:As for fandoms and crossover, if you're checking TFW2005 for news about Castle Grayskull, then you're doing the internet wrong. If you want news about a thing you're interested in you go to websites devoted to that thing you're interested in. And if you're not, then you're not that interested.


BUT, when looking specifically at who would be the target demographic for Unicron (and yes, that is actually the demand because we're specifically ONLY talking about people that want Unicron), the BEST (again, the operative word there) source of information for people that want a $600 Transformer is going to be websites about Transformers. Yes, they CAN get that elswhere, but the implication that it would be better than visiting an actual TF site (most of which have links to Hasbropulse's page) is ludicrous. That's not the way fandoms and fansites work. If you have an interest, and you want news about said interest, your BEST (I repeat BEST) source for that is sites relating to that specific interest. Which is why I said that MOST people who would be in the market (ie: the DEMAND) for a $600 Unicron are going to be people that visit TF sites regularly. That's it. That's my point. I'm not talking about the exceptions, the 1% that either missed it or got the information elsewhere, just the majority of people that backed it or would have backed it. THAT'S the demand for Unicron and this crowdfunding was a good way for Hasbro to measure that. Period. It's binary. There's only two conditions to the crowdfunding effort, success or failure. If it failed, Hasbro would know there's not enough demand for a $600 Unicron. It succeeded so now they know that there is. And knowing is half the battle!

Once again, the definition of Demand: consumer's desire to purchase goods and services and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service. In other words, those are the people that are willing to ACTUALLY BUY THE PRODUCT. Target Demographic on the other hand is a bit different. That definition is: a specific group of people most likely to buy given products or services, and are united by some common characteristics, targeted by a marketing message. So those are the people most LIKELY to buy the product, but is NOT the same thing as demand as that in-and-of-itself is no guarantee they will actually buy the product. You are confusing the people who would most likely take INTEREST in a product for the actual DEMAND for the product. These are not one in the same as you keep suggesting. Related. But two different concepts. And I never implied that it would be better to get information about the figure elsewhere than an actual TF site. You're completely forgetting why that even came up in the first place, while misconstruing what I'm saying. Which is that fans of any given topic don't just stick to one niche fandom, that there often times is crossover among fandoms and sites, as people often share and discuss other common interests. I have never disagreed with you that the people most likely to buy Unicron would be those visiting TF sites regularly. That was never even an issue. I'm also not specifically talking about exceptions or the 1% or whatever either, but simply pointing out there are additional factors here that I really don't think you are considering overall. As I pointed out before, they only hit their goal by the last day, nearly a month past their original deadline thanks to the extension. If the vested TF fans interested in getting Unicron are checking the sites every day as you suggest, then what took them so long to get Unicron funded? It's because life is more complex than that. And one more time, no, the crowdfunding or the people interested in it is not the same thing as demand. As I've said, over and over again, it CAN be a good way to gauge demand, assuming the INTEREST holds true to the actual demand. But it is not binary. A crowdfunded project does not necessarily have the same interest compared to the actual demand for the product. And the point of crowdfunding Unicron wasn't to see if there was enough demand for it. The point was to get enough of the fans to pay the cost of producing it for them. Otherwise, it would have been just yet another unproduced Unicron figure, like his G1 and BWNeo brothers.
User avatar
Sparky Prime
Supreme-Class
 
Posts: 4724
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am

Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Shockwave » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:36 pm

Ok, Mighty #9 is a bad example for a couple of reasons. 1, video games and action figures are two totally different things, with different processes for development and production. 2, Mighty#9 was being made by a creator who needed to raise the money to develop the product in the first place. Hasbro is a billion dollar company that already has and has used the resources to develop the product. 3, The people who are the demand (the people who are going to actually buy the item) for a specific TF character is going to be specific to people who like and or want a figure of that character. The people who are the demand for a video game is... literally potentially anybody who likes video games. 4, Agreeing with your original point in bringing this up, if the game had been good, there's no way to tell how many units would have been sold or by extension what the demand would have been. But there is with Unicron. Basically, one crowdfunding project isn't the same as another and aren't really comparable.

As for the whole fandom thing, if you're not talking about the outliers or the 1% that would have but didn't buy it, then why did you bring any of that up? Just to say people have interests in multiple things? Yeah, I know that. I'm an example of that. I never said people didn't. What I meant by this was that the number of people who are the demand for Unicron (ie, the people who will actually buy it) is going to be a lot more limited than something like a video game that's going to appeal to a larger audience. Unicron isn't going to be sold on PC, PS4 and Xbox, Hasbro is only selling him to TF fans. Ergo, the demand for Unicron is limited just to Transformers fans. My whole point in going down that road to begin with was because I honestly feel that Hasbro has gauged Unicron's demand in so far as they need to. The reason I believe this ties back to the reasons that I believe Might#9 is a bad example, and that's because Hasbro isn't some small company trying to fund the basic materials to produce Unicron like Might#9 was. They've already used those resources. It's developed, it exists, literally all they want to know at this point is can they sell it. That's why the backers in this case are the demand because they're preordering Unicron, not funding it's development. So those 8300+ people actually have already paid for it. Which by definition, means they are the demand. And the reason Hasbro extended the deadline is because they received enough feedback from the demand saying that they need more time to pay for it which they did.

TL:DR: Might#9 crowdfunding: not a good gauge of demand. Unicron crowdfunding: Spot on.

I will also concede that we still have yet to see how many people buy Unicron after Hasbro offers it up for full production, so yes, there could potentially be more demand later, but Hasbro knows there's enough and that's what they were looking for.
User avatar
Shockwave
Supreme-Class
 
Posts: 5839
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Sparky Prime » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:34 am

Shockwave wrote:Ok, Mighty #9 is a bad example for a couple of reasons. 1, video games and action figures are two totally different things, with different processes for development and production. 2, Mighty#9 was being made by a creator who needed to raise the money to develop the product in the first place. Hasbro is a billion dollar company that already has and has used the resources to develop the product. 3, The people who are the demand (the people who are going to actually buy the item) for a specific TF character is going to be specific to people who like and or want a figure of that character. The people who are the demand for a video game is... literally potentially anybody who likes video games. 4, Agreeing with your original point in bringing this up, if the game had been good, there's no way to tell how many units would have been sold or by extension what the demand would have been. But there is with Unicron. Basically, one crowdfunding project isn't the same as another and aren't really comparable.

Again, you're simply trying to dismiss the example for misconceived notions while not actually addressing the actual point for which I brought it up in the first place. 1. It does not matter if video games and action figures have different processes for development and production to this discussion. As I've stated numerous times, the ONLY REASON I brought up Mighty No 9 was to illustrate an example where the support for the crowdfunding campaign did not match the demand for the product itself. 2. Mighty No 9 probably did not have to go the kickstarter route to get funded in the first place, considering the level of interest behind it. As such, in 2015, Keiji Inafune had another kickstarter for another game called "Red Ash: The Indelible Legend". That campaign failed to meet its goal. However, funding for "Red Ash" was picked up by a company called Fuse Entertainment instead. I can't imagine Mighty No 9 wouldn't have gotten the same treatment, had it somehow failed its kickstarter, considering the tremendous amount of support it had. And despite Hasbro being a billion dollar company, they still had the fans pay for Unicron's production in a crowdfunding campaign. $4,600,000 to produce this one figure is a lot of money, even for them. 3. Not "literally potentially anybody who likes video games" is the demand for every video game. Just like with toys, people have different preferences in what type of games they enjoy, and even systems on which they play those games. 4. That's bullshit. If Mighty No 9 had been good, then kickstarter would have served as good gauge for how well it would have sold. That's what I mean by the crowdfunding not necessarily reflecting the demand. Circumstances can change between the crowdfunding and the final product. And you can't claim that Unicron is any different. We have no idea how well it'll even sell at this point to know how it compares to the crowdfunding.

As for the whole fandom thing, if you're not talking about the outliers or the 1% that would have but didn't buy it, then why did you bring any of that up? Just to say people have interests in multiple things? Yeah, I know that. I'm an example of that. I never said people didn't.

I told you why in my previous post. I don't think you're really taking all the factors into consideration here. I mean, like, I think the "1%" number you just kinda threw out there I think is a bit optimistic on your part honestly. It's not like we have exact statistics here or anything, but I'd have to imagine that number is higher than 1%, and that sort of thing contributes a lot more than you are giving it credit for. And while these factors does not account for the majority, when you look at them as a whole, it can and does still make a significant difference.

What I meant by this was that the number of people who are the demand for Unicron (ie, the people who will actually buy it) is going to be a lot more limited than something like a video game that's going to appeal to a larger audience. Unicron isn't going to be sold on PC, PS4 and Xbox, Hasbro is only selling him to TF fans. Ergo, the demand for Unicron is limited just to Transformers fans.

And as I've pointed out before, I think you're over generalizing video games, while marginalizing toys. Unicron is marketed toward Transformers collectors, but that doesn't mean limited to just Transformers fans. Hasbro will sell him to anyone willing to pay for it. And not every gamer is going to buy every game. And so on and so forth.

It's developed, it exists, literally all they want to know at this point is can they sell it. That's why the backers in this case are the demand because they're preordering Unicron, not funding it's development

No, what they developed was a prototype that they 3D printed and painted, it isn't the final model. It's still very much a work in progress, considering even during the campaign, one of their updates (just a couple weeks ago no less) was that they had changed Unicron's hands, going from 6 points of articulation up to 15. They still have some development to do to get it ready for mass production. Which is what the crowdfunding is paying for, finishing development and getting Unicron through production. It isn't a preorder at all. Why do you think it's called a crowdfunding campaign? The figure only actually gets made if they hit their goal to fund it.

So those 8300+ people actually have already paid for it. Which by definition, means they are the demand. And the reason Hasbro extended the deadline is because they received enough feedback from the demand saying that they need more time to pay for it which they did.

That's not how crowdfunding campaigns like these actually work. Sticking to definitions, if you look up the definition of crowdfunding, you will see there are 4 types: 1. Loan/debt/lending based - in which you're just lending the money to a company to be paid back, 2. investment/equity based - in which you get some stake in the company such as stocks, 3. donation based - in which you're giving money without necessarily receiving anything in return, and 4. reward based - in which you get some sort of reward linked to the project in exchange for helping to fund it. Both Unicron and Mighty No 9 are both reward based crowdfunding campaigns, meaning, those backers are getting a product as a gift for supporting it, NOT because it was something they'd bought. Anyone who gave the Mighty No 9 kickstarter $20 were guaranteed to get a digital copy of the game. People who contributed $40, in addition to a digital copy of the game also got a game manual, artbook/strategy guide, and the soundtrack. Those who gave $60 got a physical copy of the game, the bonuses the $40 level got, plus a golden version of the character to play as in the game. And there were other bonuses with even higher contributions. Just as with Unicron, anyone who contributed got a reward, which just so happens to be the figure they helped to fund the production of. These are all rewards for contributing a certain amount to the crowdfunding campaign - it is NOT paying for the product, as they are not actually buying anything. By definition, they are funding the creation of the product, and getting a reward for doing so. HasLab also didn't extend the deadline because of "feedback from the demand". You make it sound like Unicron had a resounding amount of support by the first deadline, but remember, at that point, they were only around 5600 backers. That was well below their goal of 8000. They would have been well within their rights to end it right then and there, but they decided to give people (a lot) more time anyway. And even with an extension of 36 more days, they only finally met their goal by the very last day of the extension.

Might#9 crowdfunding: not a good gauge of demand. Unicron crowdfunding: Spot on.

I will also concede that we still have yet to see how many people buy Unicron after Hasbro offers it up for full production, so yes, there could potentially be more demand later, but Hasbro knows there's enough and that's what they were looking for.

That doesn't make any sense. You can't claim it's "spot on" and then concede that we have no idea how many people will buy it after it hits full production. It hasn't even made it through production yet, let alone hit the market. There is literally no market sales to make any sort of comparison to the crowdfunding. And no, once again, Hasbro wasn't looking for demand with the crowdfunding, they were looking for enough funding to produce Unicron.

Also, just to point out here, I feel like you're implying I'm saying Unicron will flop because I pointed out Mighty No 9 did, when that isn't what I'm saying in the least. Again, as I've mentioned before, the point I was making WAS NEVER to compare the two at all. I had also pointed out another example, Hollow Knight, that sold way better than its kickstarter, but you kept overlooking it, or confusing what I was saying about that with Mighty No 9... But at any rate, again, the ACTUAL point I am making had nothing to do with Unicron or Mighty No 9 specifically, but rather I was simply disagreeing with Dom's statement that crowdfunding "confirms" demand, by pointing out that with ANY given crowdfunding campaign, the support with the crowdfunding does not necessarily always reflect the demand for the final product, and then used Mighty No 9 (as well and Hollow Knight) as an example to help illustrate that point. It may fall in line with the forecasts the crowdfunding indicates, or it could do better/worst. It just all depends on the circumstances. You've turned this into a comparison between Unicron and Mighty No 9, when that has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying. There was absolutely no reason this should have been drawn out like this has been.
User avatar
Sparky Prime
Supreme-Class
 
Posts: 4724
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am

Previous

Return to IDW Comics / Generations | Universe | Classics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron