crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Shockwave » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:04 pm

Who would have been the demand for Mighty #9? Video game fans and Mega Man fans. You fall into both categories but only came aware of it because of a random let's play. That proves my point about visibility. With video games, it's just to broad a subject and hobby to keep tabs on as a consumer and for companies producing a game, reaching your target audience. That is significantly less so with toys, as toy collectors tend to maintain a few specific collections and not much else. Keeping tabs on all things TF related is way easier than keeping tabs on all things video games related, even if you narrow it down to genre. You also make a good example of your point with your Castle Grayskull example, but the question there becomes whether or not you would have paid $600 for it at the time. If yes, then ok, that's a demand that slipped through, but if not, then you weren't part of the demand to begin with.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Sparky Prime » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:58 pm

No, that was Hollow Knight I said I only became aware of because of a random Let's Play. Not Mighty No 9. Read my posts more carefully. Mighty No 9 for the record, I heard about from... everywhere. The idea that Keiji Inafune was making his own Mega Man type game without Capcom was big news, as was how disappointing the game turned out. You can even find articles about it on some regular news sites, such as this one from the New York Daily News. Again, Mighty No 9 had no problems with visibility. It was a well known project basically from the moment it was announced. Hollow Knight on the other hand, as I've explained at least twice, if not more, is very much the opposite. It was a tiny project (I think it was like just 5 guys who made the game) that only became big once it was released. And again, I'm not seeing how toys are any different from video games. There are plenty of fans that constantly keep tabs on their interest but I wouldn't say just applies to just toy collectors at all. The same applies to pretty much any hobby. For video games, as an example, I keep tabs on the Pokemon games in-particular. There's nothing too broad about that at all, and doesn't mean I have to follow every single RPG. Conversely even in toy collecting, not every collector is up on all the latest news all the time. In fact, I saw a post the other day on TFW2005 that somebody had only just saw the news about Unicron, after the deadline ended on the HasLab website. That's how I know some sites are still taking orders, because that's what a few people had told him. So, once again, it seems to me everything you're saying here can apply to either.

Also not seeing how it becomes a question of whether or not I would have paid for Castle Grayskull at the time. As I see it, that's a moot point, having been unaware of it. I don't even known *when* "at the time" was.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Shockwave » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:07 am

The point is, crowdfunding is a way for companies gauge demand. If there's only 5 people that want a Unicron, there's no point in Hasbro making it and crowdfunding would tell them that. My point about Castle Grayskull was just because if you would have wanted and been willing to purchase it for the price they wanted then that's part of the demand that wasn't factored into that effort. If you wouldn't have been willing to pay for it then you weren't part of the demand to begin with. As for the difference between toys and video games, video games is a broad category with most enthusiasts enjoying multiple genres where as with toys it's usually a pretty niche fandom. Most TF fans check TF sites pretty regularly and I feel like MOST people that would be the demand for Unicron would already know about it. Yeah, there's going to be a few here or there, but Hasbro can still get a good enough idea of the demand through the crowdfunding effort.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Sparky Prime » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:09 pm

I agree, crowdfunding can help gauging demand. I have said this several times. My point was simply that crowdfunding is not necessarily an accurate test/confirmation of demand as Dom had claimed, as sometimes a product will sell better or worst than the crowdfunding/kickstarter project will indicate. I'd still have to say your point on Castle Grayskull is moot. I didn't factor into that demand either way, because I didn't even know about it in the first place. Had I known about it at the time to buy it or not ultimately doesn't matter anymore. And I feel that you're over generalizing video games, while being too specific with toys. Just because gamers might enjoy more than one genre, that doesn't mean ones interest in video games is a broad category. Again, I keep tabs on the Pokemon news regularly, but that's about it. I'm not following the latest news of every game or every genre I've ever enjoyed. Nor does that mean a toy collector will stick to just one niche fandom. I know of plenty of Transformers fans who are also into things like Ninja Turtles, Power Rangers, He Man, Marvel/DC figures, Star Wars, Star Trek and so on. As I've said, everything you're saying here really could easily apply to either hobby. I'd also have to question if "most" TF fans check TF sites regularly or not. We have absolutely no way to quantify that.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Shockwave » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:16 pm

It's confirmation if they get the support for it and it if they don't, it would confirm that there's no or not enough demand. So yeah, crowdfunding is confirmation of demand. And my point about the rest of this is that the type of TF fan who is willing to plunk down ~$600 for Unicron is probably enough of a fan that they're also keeping up on the latest news and checking various websites. I know a lady who is a Transformers fan but she just likes the movies and doesn't collect toys or keep up on stuff. So obviously she's not part of the demand for something like Unicron. I guess you similarly were not part of the demand for Castle Grayskull since you don't similarly keep up on news or websites related to it on a regular basis. Yes, most collectors do collect multiple things, but those fandoms are isolated unto themselves. There is cross over but most websites devoted to specific fandoms are not going to have news about things that don't relate to their fandom. He-Man.org probably didn't have news about Unicron. Hisstank.com probably didn't either and why would they? It's not He-Man or GI Joe related which are the fandoms those sites are for.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Sparky Prime » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:03 am

It is not confirmation of demand when the final product may not necessarily sell like the crowdfunding may have indicated. Again: see Mighty No 9 for a clear example of this. Despite having an extremely successful kickstarter, and was largely anticipated, the game flopped. If crowdfunding was confirmation of demand, then the game would have sold extremely well. Yet it did not. How many times do I have to say this? And I still wouldn't say that necessarily every fan willing to go in for Unicron would always be up on the latest news. Again, I saw at least one guy who missed it by like a day or two. I'm sure there are more. Imagine if HasLab stuck to their original deadline? Remember, at that time they were only around 5600 backers (thanks Dom for the dedicated updates on the progress). They were only able to reach their goal by extending it another 36 days. And even then, it was pretty close, only hitting the goal on by the last day and surpassing it by only a margin around 300. I'd have to imagine there were a fair amount of people that had only learned about it during that extended time frame. And I'd have to disagree with you that fandoms are isolated unto themselves. Sure, there are dedicated websites to certain interests, but that doesn't mean the fans of those franchises are only visiting those pages. Take a look at any of their forums. There is always a section for other interests. He-Man.org, to use your examples, just glancing at their "Other Forum", I see topics for Ninja Turtles, Thundercats, Star Wars, DC comics to name a few at the top of the page. Hisstank is also probably the worst possible example you could have chosen for the point you're trying to make here. They may not have Transformers news on their front page, but it's literally part of the same network of sites as TFW2005. Anyone who visits that page likely knows if you want dedicated Transformers news, all you need to do is click the link at the top of the page. Or Tokunation (for stuff like Power Rangers). Or even a generalized toy news page for pretty much everything else. Plus, they've got ads for online toy stores like BBTS, which I've seen have advertisements for Unicron. Not to mention, there are are also plenty of generalized toy news pages out there, like toynewsi or toyhypeusa that covers everything rather than dedicating themselves to a single franchise. This very message board, TFViews, has a variety of different interests beyond just Transformers in our own "Talk Here Suckas!" section. I even saw someone using this new Unicron figure's face as a profile picture on a Star Trek message board the other day. Despite there being dedicated pages to a particular franchise, these fandoms are not so isolated as you're making them out to be.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Shockwave » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:00 pm

All Mighty #9 proves is that there were 67000 people worth of demand for a game made by the creator of Mega Man sight unseen and unplayed. The sales after it came out only prove that there's no demand for a poorly made video game. The analogy will work if Unicron goes into full production and turns out to not sell any more due to bad reviews. As for fandoms and crossover, if you're checking TFW2005 for news about Castle Grayskull, then you're doing the internet wrong. If you want news about a thing you're interested in you go to websites devoted to that thing you're interested in. And if you're not, then you're not that interested. $600.00 is a lot to spend on an action figure, regardless of size and anyone who is in the fandom to spend that kind of money is usually the kind of person that will be checking said sites regularly. Yes, some people will miss it, but MOST of the people who would be the demand for Unicron, probably already knew about Unicron and were supporting it. As for the profile pic example, yes, that person may be a TF fan post on a Star Trek site, but they're primarily there to talk about Star Trek, not TFs. There are multiple sites that I check ever day for my various interests, but I am not expecting to get all of my information from one single site.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Sparky Prime » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:32 pm

Shockwave wrote:All Mighty #9 proves is that there were 67000 people worth of demand for a game made by the creator of Mega Man sight unseen and unplayed. The sales after it came out only prove that there's no demand for a poorly made video game.

AGAIN, 67000 people WERE NOT THE DEMAND. Those were the people willing to give the creators money to fund making the game. Where as the demand is the people who bought the game. These are two different things.

The analogy will work if Unicron goes into full production and turns out to not sell any more due to bad reviews.

I'm not making an analogy for Unicron specifically though. Once again, I'm simply saying a crowdfunding project doesn't necessarily reflect the demand for the final product and thus shouldn't be considered a test or "confirmation" of demand. It may help to gauge demand (if the forecasts hold true), but that's about it.

As for fandoms and crossover, if you're checking TFW2005 for news about Castle Grayskull, then you're doing the internet wrong. If you want news about a thing you're interested in you go to websites devoted to that thing you're interested in. And if you're not, then you're not that interested.

That isn't true at all. Have you not visited "The ToyArk" section (either the section of TFW2005 forums or the sister site)? I've sometimes seen some better coverage there than even some of the most dedicated fan sites of a given franchise. A dedicated website to a particular topic is usually a good place to go for news on that topic, but that doesn't mean it's the only source to find news on that topic, regardless of if the site is dedicated to that topic or not. I actually prefer finding Power Rangers news on TFW2005's message board, for an example, rather than any of the dedicated fan sites I know of. The dedicated sites sometimes have something they haven't brought up, usually to do with the comics, but the guys at TFW2005 really don't miss much when it comes to the show and toys and are often better at finding/gathering news than some sites. That doesn't hold true with every topic of course, but it certainly does not mean 'you're either interested in the thing if you visit websites devoted to the topic or you're not that interested' that you're making it out to be.

There are multiple sites that I check ever day for my various interests, but I am not expecting to get all of my information from one single site.

I'm not saying you should expect to get all the information you'd want from one single site. But, again, that doesn't mean you can't find the exact same information about other franchises on a site that is not dedicated to that franchise.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Shockwave » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:01 pm

I still think Mighty #9 is a terrible example. Reason being is that the kickstarter only shows the demand for a Mega Man style game by the same creator SIGHT UNSEEN AND UNPLAYED. That's an important distinction because anyone else who would have to did buy after the fact were waiting for reviews to know whether it was good or not. Those people would be the demand for a GOOD Mega Man style game made by the same creator. That isn't what was produced, so there was no demand for the game after it came out.

I am making an analogy for Unicron so maybe that's where the disconnect is. There's only going to be so many people that are the demand for Unicron. Hasbro has narrowed that down even further to people that are 1 In demand for Unicron, 2 for $600, 3 within a certain time frame. The crowdfunding campaign gave them the data they needed to know if enough demand was there to go into production.

Way to miss the point. Yes, most sites have sections for other non whatever related stuff, but most sites devoted to a thing... are specifically for that thing. If you really get better Power Rangers news from a TF site than from a site run by and for fans of Power Rangers then the PR fanbase needs to step up it's game with it's fansites. Yes, you CAN get information about Unicron on other non TF related sites, but no one in their logical right mind is going to think "I wonder if Hasbro is going to make a Unicron figure. Better check out Startrek.com". That just doesn't make any sense. My ultimate point with this is that people who would be the target demographic (ie: the demand) for a $600 Unicron figure aren't going to be people that don't check TF news sites on a regular basis. Expecting them to get that information elsewhere is possible but is not the norm and should not be expected.
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Re: crowd-funded "War for Cybertron" Unicron (2019 HasLab)

Postby Sparky Prime » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:40 pm

Shockwave wrote:I still think Mighty #9 is a terrible example. Reason being is that the kickstarter only shows the demand for a Mega Man style game by the same creator SIGHT UNSEEN AND UNPLAYED. That's an important distinction because anyone else who would have to did buy after the fact were waiting for reviews to know whether it was good or not. Those people would be the demand for a GOOD Mega Man style game made by the same creator. That isn't what was produced, so there was no demand for the game after it came out.

That's because you don't know any of the history behind the game. It actually was not "sight unseen and unplayed" at all. If you go to their kickstarter page, you can actually see an entire history of updates they posted about the game while it was in development, including screenshots, videos and even instructions to get a demo of the game. Some of which is actually better than the final release version of the game. People expected a GOOD Mega Man style game because that's what they were showing the game to be, and with Keiji Inafune at the helm, what could go wrong? Without going into all the details... They had a lot of problems and delays behind the scenes, and what they ended up releasing in the end was an inferior game to what they were showing it was supposed to be.

And "demand" is people who bought the game. Period. It is not the same thing as the backers who funded the kickstarter.

I am making an analogy for Unicron so maybe that's where the disconnect is.

Sounds like it, since that was never the point.

Way to miss the point. Yes, most sites have sections for other non whatever related stuff, but most sites devoted to a thing... are specifically for that thing. If you really get better Power Rangers news from a TF site than from a site run by and for fans of Power Rangers then the PR fanbase needs to step up it's game with it's fansites. Yes, you CAN get information about Unicron on other non TF related sites, but no one in their logical right mind is going to think "I wonder if Hasbro is going to make a Unicron figure. Better check out Startrek.com". That just doesn't make any sense. My ultimate point with this is that people who would be the target demographic (ie: the demand) for a $600 Unicron figure aren't going to be people that don't check TF news sites on a regular basis. Expecting them to get that information elsewhere is possible but is not the norm and should not be expected.

I haven't missed your point at all, I'm disagreeing with the implications you're giving along with it. I don't think the PR fansites need to step up their game. I personally just don't see a need to visit them all the time when I know where I can get the EXACT SAME INFORMATION elsewhere that I do visit all the time already anyway. So what would be the point? I honestly don't understand your notion that one MUST visit a site dedicate to a particular thing to be "that interested" in the thing. Like I have to somehow prove something by visiting certain dedicated pages? No. It does not matter where I find my information about the topics I'm interested in from, just so long as I know where I can find it if I so wish. And you are completely misconstruing what I'm saying here. I never said or implied anything to the effect of "I wonder if Hasbro is going to make a Unicron figure. Better check out Startrek.com". (Just as an aside, I'd have to say Startrek.com really sucks. I wouldn't even go there looking for news on Star Trek, as they generally don't have much, and their content overall is just disappointingly lacking. Other than some concept art of some Discovery ships ((which I originally came across elsewhere for the record)), I don't think they've ever been a good resource for Star Trek.) Which leads to my point, that, again, if you know where to look, you can find good information about a given topic in many places. AS I SAID, message boards which covers a wider base of interests than what the front page would, and sites that have sister sites dedicated to other interests (such as Hisstank and TWF2005) and somewhat generalized sites like Toynewsi,. That's not at all like saying you should visit a COMPLETELY unrelated site that obviously isn't going to have any of that information anywhere on it. And target demographics, once again, isn't the same thing as "the demand". For the umpteenth time, the demand is the people WHO ACTUALLY BUY THE THING. It doesn't matter to the seller where those people come from as long as they have the money for it. You're also making it sound like the pages dedicated to Transformers were actively advertising for Unicron. When that's not the case at all. They simply reported on Unicron of their own volition. And my point here is not that you should expect to get information simply anywhere, but that doesn't mean it absolutely has to come from a site dedicated to that topic. You wanna talk about "doing the internet wrong", then you should know the internet is not always so straightforward as you're making it out to be.
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