Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

The modern comics universe has had such a different take on G1, one that's significantly represented by the Generations toys, so they share a forum. A modern take on a Real Cybertronian Hero. Currently starring Generations toys, IDW "The Transformers" comics, MTMTE, TF vs GI Joe, and Windblade. Oh wait, and now Skybound, wheee!
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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Shockwave wrote:I think there's plenty of basis. The term "Senator" and the fact that there are obviously more than one implies that there is some sort of shared power structure where they all agree on a majority to get things done. And, Orion is obviously not on board with Megatron's movement. If we assume the other senators aren't either that definitely would limit Megatron's legal political power, probably enough for him to take it to the extent of waging war which is pretty obviously what we're seeing here. If their senate didn't have some sort of similar structure to ours then why would the writers bother using that term when they could just make up something completely alien and different. The terms are used because it's a shortcut that the audience is familiar with to establish that this is the way politics works in this setting.
That's not really the point I'm making here, and I'd have to disagree that the term used is simply a shortcut for us to think of our own government as the model here. There has been more then one system of government on Earth that has used the term "Senator". Some of which had more political power comparatively to ours. The Roman Senate for example, at least during the Roman Republic era. They were not elected officials like our Senators are, instead being appointed to their seats by other officials (whom were elected). Now, I'm not at all saying Megatron had the ability to establish changes on his own. Obviously, as a part of a Senate, anything he proposes probably has to be passed by a majority vote. But regardless, as a Senator, he has a great deal of political power, and how popular he is with the public will have an influence on the rest of the Senate. And being an alien form of government, we have no idea what differences they might have or just how much influence he might have compared to our system. But the point I'm making here, is that this is a Megatron already in a seat of great political power, possibly more so than our senators are considered to have, given past versions of the Cybertronian senate seem to have been influenced more by the Roman Republic Senate than our own Senate. Only with less checks and balances given the Cybertronian Senate is usually shown to be corrupt, without a means to remove those elements. And this Megatron is not the nobody miner, or the gladiator, as previous versions of Megatron have been. It's a very different interpretation of the character who is an influential Senator with the support of the public, as apposed to someone fighting the system from outside of it, leading a mob.

And, I wouldn't say Orion is not on board with Megatron's goals here. I mean, he might be, but we don't actually know what Megatron is trying to change yet actually, let alone what Orion's position on it is. The reason Orion talked with Megatron was just to ask him to stop his demonstrations, as the "Ascenticons" rallies are becoming violent, with dozens of citizens injured in the last one. For whatever reason, Megatron seems to believe these rallies are the only way he can accomplish the changes he's proposing, what ever that might be.
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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Sparky Prime wrote:Now, I'm not at all saying Megatron had the ability to establish changes on his own. Obviously, as a part of a Senate, anything he proposes probably has to be passed by a majority vote.
This really is the point I was making. The term "Senator" implies some sort of shared power structure regardless of whether it's based on the US model or the Roman structure. It establishes enough that the reader is already familiar with as a concept so that the writer doesn't have to waste more page space on world building that creating a completely alien form of government would require. By using the word "Senator" it's the writer's way of saying "Ok, there's a senate, representatives have shared power. Everyone up to speed? Great, let's get on with the story."
Sparky Prime wrote:And this Megatron is not the nobody miner, or the gladiator, as previous versions of Megatron have been. It's a very different interpretation of the character who is an influential Senator with the support of the public, as apposed to someone fighting the system from outside of it, leading a mob.
Indeed, I am very interested in seeing where this is going.
Sparky Prime wrote:And, I wouldn't say Orion is not on board with Megatron's goals here. I mean, he might be, but we don't actually know what Megatron is trying to change yet actually, let alone what Orion's position on it is. The reason Orion talked with Megatron was just to ask him to stop his demonstrations, as the "Ascenticons" rallies are becoming violent, with dozens of citizens injured in the last one. For whatever reason, Megatron seems to believe these rallies are the only way he can accomplish the changes he's proposing, what ever that might be.
Fair enough, I may have read more into that than was there.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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Shockwave wrote:This really is the point I was making. The term "Senator" implies some sort of shared power structure regardless of whether it's based on the US model or the Roman structure. It establishes enough that the reader is already familiar with as a concept so that the writer doesn't have to waste more page space on world building that creating a completely alien form of government would require. By using the word "Senator" it's the writer's way of saying "Ok, there's a senate, representatives have shared power. Everyone up to speed? Great, let's get on with the story."
The thing is, you're making it sound like I'd said Megatron has all the power, when I never said or implied that he doesn't share it among his fellow senators. Again, my point was that Megatron has a great deal of power as a Senator, unlike other Megatron's we've seen in other continuities who was a nobody. Using the term "Senator" might tell us they have a representative form of government that shares the political power among the members, but that's not all that it tells us simply to get readers 'up to speed'. What model that Senate follows also makes a difference in just how much political power it affords those Senators. Even in the previous IDW storyline, we saw the pre-war Senate had become so powerful and corrupt that they just did whatever suited their own interests, with apparently nothing in place to check and balance them like our government does (or even the Roman Senate did). Hence, why the war began in the first place in that continuity. These are important distinctions to be making which I'm sure we will be seeing more of as the story develops, not simply just storytelling shortcuts.
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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Sparky Prime wrote:The thing is, you're making it sound like I'd said Megatron has all the power, when I never said or implied that he doesn't share it among his fellow senators. Again, my point was that Megatron has a great deal of power as a Senator, unlike other Megatron's we've seen in other continuities who was a nobody. Using the term "Senator" might tell us they have a representative form of government that shares the political power among the members, but that's not all that it tells us simply to get readers 'up to speed'. What model that Senate follows also makes a difference in just how much political power it affords those Senators. Even in the previous IDW storyline, we saw the pre-war Senate had become so powerful and corrupt that they just did whatever suited their own interests, with apparently nothing in place to check and balance them like our government does (or even the Roman Senate did). Hence, why the war began in the first place in that continuity. These are important distinctions to be making which I'm sure we will be seeing more of as the story develops, not simply just storytelling shortcuts.

Why does he need a movement to make changes when he's already in a position to make changes as a senator?
This was the original question you were asking. The short answer to it (which is what Dom and I are saying) is: Limited power. Senators, by the very nature of the base structure of a Senate (regardless of whether it's the US or Roman model or something different) have limited power to make changes. The answer to why specifically he would need the movement rather than just going through legislation will probably be answered as part of this story arc, but I would guess that he tried and was voted down for whatever reason. The rallies are likely to gain support in districts other than his own to put pressure on the other senators to endorse his changes. Again, that's speculation, we'll just have to see how the story plays out to get the full answers.
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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Shockwave wrote:This was the original question you were asking. The short answer to it (which is what Dom and I are saying) is: Limited power. Senators, by the very nature of the base structure of a Senate (regardless of whether it's the US or Roman model or something different) have limited power to make changes. The answer to why specifically he would need the movement rather than just going through legislation will probably be answered as part of this story arc, but I would guess that he tried and was voted down for whatever reason. The rallies are likely to gain support in districts other than his own to put pressure on the other senators to endorse his changes. Again, that's speculation, we'll just have to see how the story plays out to get the full answers.
That speculation doesn't answer my question. Regardless of Megatron leading the "Ascenticons" rallies, that in itself doesn't change how much power he's got as a Senator. Anything he proposes still has to go before the Senate for them to decide as a collective. Public demonstrations might help influence the other senators. Or it might not. It doesn't actually give Megatron any more power than he already has. And again, it absolutely does make a difference what model they're following. As I pointed out in my previous post, we saw how the corruption of the Senate in the previous IDW continuity, with out anything to keep their power in check, allowed them to do whatever they wanted to suit their own interests, regardless of what the public thought about it. It'd help to know what Megatron's proposed changes are or what the other Senators actually think about it, rather than just Orion disapproving of the direction the rallies are going.
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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When I see the title "Senator", to me that connotes some degree of prestige and power, but not on the level of a king or dictator, since a senate is a deliberative, parliamentary body of representatives. So Megatron and Orion have risen to positions of leadership within their own communities and been sent to the Senate, which is about all we can infer at this point. They're both individuals with opinion and enough persuasive ability to gain a following, and Megatron is going a step further by leading this movement, going outside the political system (whatever it is). I wouldn't read much more into it than all of that at this point.

I would say that the fact that Megatron is leading a protest movement indicates that however much power he has as a senator, it's not enough for him to do what he feels needs to be done. And that fits in with where we all assume he's going: the leadership of the Decepticons down the road, and an attempt at dictatorship. We don't know whether the Senate is corrupt or not, we just infer that it's not doing what Megatron wants, and so he's resorting to alternate means to try and bring about change.
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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andersonh1 wrote:When I see the title "Senator", to me that connotes some degree of prestige and power, but not on the level of a king or dictator, since a senate is a deliberative, parliamentary body of representatives. So Megatron and Orion have risen to positions of leadership within their own communities and been sent to the Senate, which is about all we can infer at this point. They're both individuals with opinion and enough persuasive ability to gain a following, and Megatron is going a step further by leading this movement, going outside the political system (whatever it is). I wouldn't read much more into it than all of that at this point.

I would say that the fact that Megatron is leading a protest movement indicates that however much power he has as a senator, it's not enough for him to do what he feels needs to be done. And that fits in with where we all assume he's going: the leadership of the Decepticons down the road, and an attempt at dictatorship. We don't know whether the Senate is corrupt or not, we just infer that it's not doing what Megatron wants, and so he's resorting to alternate means to try and bring about change.
Exactly.
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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Let me put this another way... How often do you see a senator, personally, leading public rallies for a given cause? Not a rally to get themselves or someone else they support (re)elected. Or even completely unnecessary post-victory rallies just for one man's ego. But rallying for a particular cause to be voted on? The answer is, you don't. If they want to pass something through the Senate, they're usually busy trying to convince their fellow Senators to vote their way. Not building up public support with marches that are becoming violent. It's odd to see Megatron, as a Senator, taking this approach.
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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Sparky Prime wrote:Let me put this another way... How often do you see a senator, personally, leading public rallies for a given cause? Not a rally to get themselves or someone else they support (re)elected. Or even completely unnecessary post-victory rallies just for one man's ego. But rallying for a particular cause to be voted on? The answer is, you don't. If they want to pass something through the Senate, they're usually busy trying to convince their fellow Senators to vote their way. Not building up public support with marches that are becoming violent. It's odd to see Megatron, as a Senator, taking this approach.
You sometimes see US Senators (or politicians in general) speaking to protest groups, or issue-oriented groups as a part of gaining public support for an issue, or to get some publicity. You don't generally see them leading such groups though, especially if said groups are becoming violent, so I do see your point. Look at it as Megatron demonstrating that he's willing to break with the established rules of power and government on Cybertron if he's willing to go outside of normally acceptable boundaries, and look at it as an indication that if he's willing to go that far, he will be willing to go further. Hopefully issue 2 will further clarify the situation. Maybe no one other than Orion is willing to try and rein him in.
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Re: Transformers 2019 (IDW comic series) discussion

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andersonh1 wrote:You don't generally see them leading such groups though, especially if said groups are becoming violent, so I do see your point.
Exactly. It'd be one thing for Megatron to issue a statement or have an issue-oriented group in his stead, it's entirely another for him to be personally leading them himself as a Senator. Especially if it's becoming violent. You'd expect a senator would do their best to distance themselves from that situation.
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