Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

The modern comics universe has had such a different take on G1, one that's significantly represented by the Generations toys, so they share a forum. A modern take on a Real Cybertronian Hero. Currently starring Generations toys, IDW "The Transformers" comics, MTMTE, TF vs GI Joe, and Windblade. Oh wait, and now Skybound, wheee!
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:Sunstreaker and Ironhide are both back with the Autobots, like nothing happened.
That had happened way before Dark Cybertron. Heck that was even before Barber was writing for the series, that was something Costa wrote.
Starscream is out of jail, and back to being a bad-guy.
Out of jail, but is he back to being a bad guy? That has yet to be determined.
Shockwave and Kup are back from....
Shockwave is really the only one I can give you. Kup we knew was transported to the Dead Universe... Where it had already been established under Furman that character's can't die there.
Speculation was that the core Marvel universe was going to be more like the movies, visually and with revised character origins. "Squadron Supreme" (one of the many failed titles) was initially written with the explicit premise that the multiverse was gone (complete with fuzzing out details from Hickman's lead-in to "Secret Wars"). Marvel started scaling back the changes before "Secret Wars" ended.
They were already doing that long before Secret Wars. Iron-Man's origins had already slid in time and location from originally being the Vietnam War to the Gulf War in the 90's and eventually became more or less like it is in the films. They played around with Spider-Man's powers, giving him organic webshooters like the first film had done, only to undo it giving him his mechanical webshooters again a year later. The X-Men had black leather costumes for a little while (Mystique even adopted the scaled look from the films for a while). Hawkeye ditched his traditional costume for a look closer to the films. More recently they'd introduced Nick Fury Jr. in 2012 to replace Nick Fury Sr.. They didn't need Secret Wars to make the 616 universe more like the films, they'd already done that.

I can't find anything that says Squadron Supreme had an explicit premise that the multiverse was gone like you're claiming. The only thing I'm seeing is that each member of the team was the sole survivor of their respective universes. Not unlike what happened to a few of the Ultimate characters that ended up permanently in the 616 universe following Secret Wars. All you've pointed out is fan theories and speculation, not any actual evidence Secret Wars could have ended any differently than it did.
"Web-Warriors" included a multi-verse (but recognized that some of it was damaged), and followed directly from one of the "Secret Wars" tie-ins. "Old Man Logan" is still running. And, some people speculate that "Contest of Champions" was originally supposed to be the source for alternate universe characters. (That series was the stupidest fun ever.)
And...? I'm not seeing how any of this is relevant.
Ultimates also showed up in the Al Ewing series of the same name, and more recently in .....something or another. My guess is that somebody at Marvel (likely Ewing) had a plan to bring back Ultimate (if not as an imprint, as a setting).
That's not the same thing. Those versions of the characters were recreated by the Maker (Ultimate Reed Richards) to help Eternity fight the First Firmament. The Maker later killed their Captain America when they turned against him, and were last seen chasing him through the multiverse. They haven't appeared since from anything I can find. When we saw the new Ultimate universe more recently in Spider-Men II, it was clearly a different team, with their Captain America still alive and a female Iron Man. None of this indicates they had plans to bring back Ultimate.
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Dominic
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

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That had happened way before Dark Cybertron. Heck that was even before Barber was writing for the series, that was something Costa wrote.
I recall that being late-Costa, setting up for the next creative team. (Because, stasis-quo must be restored before a new creative team starts....)
Kup we knew was transported to the Dead Universe...
Multiversal time-travel really needs to be a one-way trip.
I can't find anything that says Squadron Supreme had an explicit premise that the multiverse was gone like you're claiming. The only thing I'm seeing is that each member of the team was the sole survivor of their respective universes.

Nighthawk was implied to be the same character as the Nighthawk on Battleworld (shown in the first issue of "Squadron Sinister". And, the motivation for the team was to "save the world" from the sort of threat(s) that wiped out their worlds. Admittedly, however, Robinson was out of step with the rest of Marvel fairly early in the run.

They haven't appeared since from anything I can find. When we saw the new Ultimate universe more recently in Spider-Men II, it was clearly a different team, with their Captain America still alive and a female Iron Man. None of this indicates they had plans to bring back Ultimate
I forget which other book the Ultimates showed up in.... Maybe "Exiles"? In any case, Marvel keeps teasing the return. That likely means they are at least considering it. (I do not want it to happen. But, I am expecting it.)
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

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Dominic wrote:I recall that being late-Costa, setting up for the next creative team. (Because, stasis-quo must be restored before a new creative team starts....)
Still was Costa that wrote it. You can't blame a writer for what his predecessors already established. And I wouldn't say the status-quo must be restored before a new creative team starts. That'd get pretty boring if every time a new writer came on board things always got reset.
Multiversal time-travel really needs to be a one-way trip.
Well with Kup ending up at the birth of the Dead Universe, he was trapped there for what... Billions of years? It sort of was a one-way trip for him. Until a portal between universes was opened in the modern day.
Nighthawk was implied to be the same character as the Nighthawk on Battleworld (shown in the first issue of "Squadron Sinister". And, the motivation for the team was to "save the world" from the sort of threat(s) that wiped out their worlds. Admittedly, however, Robinson was out of step with the rest of Marvel fairly early in the run.
Everyone on Battleworld came from another universe, the planet was literally made up of small surviving pieces from many different universes Earth's (At least 42 according to the Battleworld map, and probably a few more). That version of Nighthawk apparently originally came from universe 31916. And yeah, they decided to protect Earth 616 after their world's had been destroyed in the events leading up to Secret Wars. But that doesn't mean the multiverse was gone. Just the world's they'd come from.
I forget which other book the Ultimates showed up in.... Maybe "Exiles"? In any case, Marvel keeps teasing the return. That likely means they are at least considering it. (I do not want it to happen. But, I am expecting it.)
I'm not seeing any references to those Ultimates being in Exiles. I think you're just confusing the 'New' Ultimate universe that had a cameo in Spider-Men II. And I don't think Marvel is teasing the return. With characters like Miles Morales in the 616 universe permanently now, I don't see them bringing back the Ultimate universe.
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

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And I wouldn't say the status-quo must be restored before a new creative team starts. That'd get pretty boring if every time a new writer came on board things always got reset.
That is what Marvel and DC do....all the damned time, though. Every big change gets undone, and things get set back to how they "always were and are going to stay".

Well with Kup ending up at the birth of the Dead Universe, he was trapped there for what... Billions of years? It sort of was a one-way trip for him. Until a portal between universes was opened in the modern day.
...which is kind of stupid.


Everyone on Battleworld came from another universe, the planet was literally made up of small surviving pieces from many different universes Earth's (At least 42 according to the Battleworld map, and probably a few more).
Battleworld was so loosely defined (intentionally so) that the map cannot be taken literally, which Marvel actually said. Even the no-FF rule (backed by editorial decree) was broken in a few places.

That version of Nighthawk apparently originally came from universe 31916. And yeah, they decided to protect Earth 616 after their world's had been destroyed in the events leading up to Secret Wars. But that doesn't mean the multiverse was gone. Just the world's they'd come from.
This gets kind of floofy (because Marvel does not care, and has not for at least 15 years).

The Nighthawk from the Robinson series was supposed to be the same guy who jobbed out early in "Squadron Sinister" (the Battleworld series), and the character from the "Supreme Power" series. And, his world was shown being wiped out during "Time Runs Out". (He was dead in that panel....uh....)

But, the end of the "Squadron Supreme" world, and their Earth-3 style counterpart (home of the criminal Squadron), shown in flash-back by Robinson, was not a universal collision. (The universal collisions have largely been ambiguated out. But, that is a whole other issue. Actually, this discussion should probably be moved to the comics thread.)

Similarly, the end of Spectrum's world was heavily re-written by Robinson. It assumed a multiversal collision....but was depicted much differently than Hickman wrote it in "Time Runs Out".

m not seeing any references to those Ultimates being in Exiles. I think you're just confusing the 'New' Ultimate universe that had a cameo in Spider-Men II. And I don't think Marvel is teasing the return. With characters like Miles Morales in the 616 universe permanently now, I don't see them bringing back the Ultimate universe.
I am thinking of a sequence where the main characters jumped between universes, spending a panel or two in several different universes over the course of a few pages. I cannot recall the series this was in though. (It was within the last few months.)

I tend to think that Ewing had plans the Ultimate characters. But, I doubt we will ever see it play out.
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:
Well with Kup ending up at the birth of the Dead Universe, he was trapped there for what... Billions of years? It sort of was a one-way trip for him. Until a portal between universes was opened in the modern day.
...which is kind of stupid.
Maybe, but stupid writing is not the same as a character coming back from the dead or a change being undone. Those are examples, sure, but Kup wasn't ever dead. We knew he went back in time to the dead universe and would be back. That's not undoing a change or "reverting to status quo".
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

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Dominic wrote:That is what Marvel and DC do....all the damned time, though. Every big change gets undone, and things get set back to how they "always were and are going to stay".
Yeah, but not with every change in creative teams was the point. Sometimes perhaps, but not always. Marvel will generally reset the status quo after about a year, regardless of the creative teams. DC tends to vary. Sometimes its a few years, sometimes it's by the time the TPB is released...
...which is kind of stupid.
Well I wasn't a big fan of the whole Dead Universe thing myself... But Furman was the one who established characters couldn't die in the Dead Universe, and that characters could travel to and from it from certain portals. And like Shockwave points out, it's not the same thing as killing off a character and bringing them back or reverting the status quo. We knew Kup would still be alive in the Dead Universe.
Battleworld was so loosely defined (intentionally so) that the map cannot be taken literally, which Marvel actually said. Even the no-FF rule (backed by editorial decree) was broken in a few places.
I know Marvel said there was more to the map than they could actually show with it, but that's not the same thing as "loosely defined". Marvel still had a reason for making the map in the first place, which was to define the major universes that had been used to create Battleworld.
This gets kind of floofy (because Marvel does not care, and has not for at least 15 years).

The Nighthawk from the Robinson series was supposed to be the same guy who jobbed out early in "Squadron Sinister" (the Battleworld series), and the character from the "Supreme Power" series. And, his world was shown being wiped out during "Time Runs Out". (He was dead in that panel....uh....)

But, the end of the "Squadron Supreme" world, and their Earth-3 style counterpart (home of the criminal Squadron), shown in flash-back by Robinson, was not a universal collision. (The universal collisions have largely been ambiguated out. But, that is a whole other issue. Actually, this discussion should probably be moved to the comics thread.)

Similarly, the end of Spectrum's world was heavily re-written by Robinson. It assumed a multiversal collision....but was depicted much differently than Hickman wrote it in "Time Runs Out".
Admittedly I know very little about the lore behind Squadron Supreme. But regardless of whatever Robinson may or may not have intended, that ultimately doesn't matter. Marvel's official position is that version of Nighthawk came from universe 31916.
I am thinking of a sequence where the main characters jumped between universes, spending a panel or two in several different universes over the course of a few pages. I cannot recall the series this was in though. (It was within the last few months.)

I tend to think that Ewing had plans the Ultimate characters. But, I doubt we will ever see it play out.
And I still can't find any references to those characters appearing in anything since Ultimates2. The only other Ultimate reference I can find after that was Spider-Men II, with an entirely new universe 1610. And still not seeing any indications that Marvel would have brought back Ultimate. Again, the only comic left from that line was Miles Morales. What would be the point of bringing back the Ultimate line when their last star character of that line is a resident of the 616 Universe now?
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

Post by Dominic »

And like Shockwave points out, it's not the same thing as killing off a character and bringing them back or reverting the status quo. We knew Kup would still be alive in the Dead Universe.
It is the same kind of dumb writing that makes comics dubious as a medium.
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

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Dominic wrote:It is the same kind of dumb writing that makes comics dubious as a medium.
I'd have to disagree. Having a character end up in a parallel universe (where we know they aren't dead) for them to eventually come back is much more plausible to me than killing off a character and then bringing them back to life. Not to mention, Kup's current body was built using Pretender technology to save his life, which we also know was previously used by some Autobots to protect them when they entered a portal to the Dead Universe.
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

Post by andersonh1 »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Dominic wrote:It is the same kind of dumb writing that makes comics dubious as a medium.
I'd have to disagree. Having a character end up in a parallel universe (where we know they aren't dead) for them to eventually come back is much more plausible to me than killing off a character and then bringing them back to life. Not to mention, Kup's current body was built using Pretender technology to save his life, which we also know was previously used by some Autobots to protect them when they entered a portal to the Dead Universe.
Yeah, I don't see that as killing Kup off, just taking him off the board for awhile.
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Re: Transformers: Unicron (discussion and speculation)

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Unicron #2

With Starscream's return to the Decepticons, he announces his own plan to stop Unicron. Turns out he has had Bludgeon out secretly gathering the Decepticon forces and ships spread out across the universe that never returned home to Cybertron following the war. Surrounding Unicron, they will set up a stasis web to prevent the planet from escaping. Meanwhile, Arcee seems upset having seen an Omega Sentinel inside of Unicron. She once fought along side them when forces of Cybertron tried to expand eons ago. She assumes one of them either found Unicron or had been sent by Shockwave (during his time as Onyx Prime), but obviously they wouldn't be able to trust him if they asked. This gives Bumblebee an idea someone else they could ask about it, as Omega Supreme once commanded the Omega Sentinels. Unfortunately, Omega Supreme is still comatose, but somehow he is able to communicate to Bumblebee when the mini-bot touches his face....

In the war room, the Council of Worlds leaders are not happy to see Starscream. But Starscream assures them he has changed by revealing Shockwave's plan to let Unicron eat Cybertron and have Starscream become a Decepticon messiah to conquer the universe. But instead, Starscream plans on having his Decepticon fleet unleash all their firepower against Unicron, which should be enough to destroy several planets. Optimus remains convinced Starscream will betray them, but at that moment, they get a signal from Chromia on the ship Sabre, who are witness to the Decepticon fleet beginning their attack on Unicron. Meanwhile, Bumblebee is given a look into the ancient past by Omega Supreme, who reveals in an alien war, a doomsday device was used that devastated the entire solar system, giving rise to the Dire Wraiths (Rom and the Space Knights mortal enemies), leaving their star black and orbited by a now dead world (I guess this is meant to imply Unicron was the Dire Wraiths original homeworld)...

The Decepticons battle with Unicron doesn't go well, as Unicron unleashes his Maximal army against them, and teleports himself to Cybertron. The Maximals break onto the bridge of Bludgeon's ship (much to the horror of his crew). Bludgeon reveals Unicron is his true master, and the Maximals... shed their skins (guessing they're like Pretender Shells?) revealing themselves as the creations of Liege Maximo, that Bludgeon calls the Decepticons final evolution. Bumblebee reawakens, seeing Unicron transform to his robot mode above Cybertron. He tells Aileron he knows what Unicron is, and that to stop him, all of them have to die.


--
So despite Starscream back to being a Decepticon, he appears to still be on the side of good as he says he has no intentions of going along with Shockwave's plans, and has his own plan to have the Decepticon fleet destroy Unicron to save Cybertron instead. Nice to see Optimus isn't convinced Starscream won't betray them though. It seemed odd to me to see Starscream put Bludgeon in command of gathering the Decepticon fleet. He's never been the most reliable of Decepticons in the IDW universe, most often following his own or someone else's agenda. Having it revealed he's working for Unicron kinda reminded me of the Armada comic with him being one of the heralds of Unicron in that story. Also kinda goes along with the two crew members on the bridge with him being based on Minicons. Nice call back to TFTM with Unicron's transformation sequence. Although I'm a little surprised to see him transform already. I was thinking it'd be another issue or two before that happened. It's kinda nice to see the Maximals are... something else, that were just wearing a shell that made them look like the Beast Wars characters. Didn't expect that. And I'm still a little fuzzy as to the origin of Unicron that Bumblebee is shown. I feel there is more that has yet to be revealed with that.
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