Fall of Cybertron: They've got my money now

[Shockwave]

Did MGS4 *require* you to install the game to the hard drive? Or did you optionally do this? Because like I said, I've never had a game that required me to install it to the hard drive beyond downloading some miniscule (we're talking 500k) updates, and I've basically seen the results of installing a game in action--it loads a teeny tiny bit faster. Striderneko has Left 4 Dead 2 installed on his hard drive, and we play it online semi-frequently--he gets about an extra second or two of time inside the safe room before mine loads. Woooo isn't that extra boost great? Besiding that, I don't even have a hard drive, just the flash drives, so I don't even think the boost would do that much.

MGS4 makes you do 'data installations' after each chapter/portion of the game. This basically involves having the game stop on you and watching a progress meter for fifteen or so minutes while Snake smokes and little tips/info tidbits pop up. This is not optional. Wheee....

I'm making a mental note not to play MGS4. Ever.

FAKE EDIT: I lied. Halo 3 requires you to have a hard drive (not just flash drives, an actual Xbox 360 hard drive) to play online co-op. But even then, you can play the single player just fine.

For the record, who the hell buys a shooter to play the single player?

I do because I generally suck at video games. Doesn't keep me from playing them though.

That's really weird! It must be a PS3 thing--my Xbox 360 has never done that, only ever asking me to update when I boot the console or a game. And even then, I can just decline and then continue to play the game normally. Also, how big are these updates man? I've never downloaded one that was more than a meg or two.

Hey, it happened on the PS3, so it may be a PS3 thing. That said, the length of the procedure on my end may be attributed to the fact that I was downloading the update via a neighbor's wi-fi, since I don't have wireless internet here. I'll make a point of that later on.

Yeah, I too will comment on that later on.

I don't get it, though. It's like when they made Super Street Fighter 2 or whatever and added Deejay and T. Hawk and Cammy. They're just 'additional' characters. New ones that weren't done. Whereas back in the day you'd have to pay full price for that, now you just get them as DLC. Of course, Capcom doesn't understand this, so we get shit like Super Street Fighter 4 and Ultimate MVC3, so you end up paying $40-60 for the addition of, what, four new characters, rather than $15?

The thing to understand about Capcom's now-infamous game updates is that there's more to them than just new characters. Generally, the game undergoes some reworking with each new release, with existing characters getting new moves, old moves getting new properties, and the whole thing getting rejiggered for different play options and balance issues. Often new levels and story elements get put in as well. It's a new, reworked product, not just the old one with some new stuff stuck in. For comparison, Ultimate MvC3 features twelve new characters, and multiple new modes, including that Heroes vs. Heralds thing that A) acts almost like a completely different game and B) is actually coming out as DLC because they're rushing an unfinished product to market. Jill and Shuma-Gorath on the other hand, were just two additional characters that got released for purchase less than a month after the original game came out. People could've waited an extra month for them to stick the last two characters in.

You could also just wait those few more months, pick the game up for far less money to begin with, and then pay for the DLC to make it even out. Nothing says you *have* to buy the latest game right now right now gotta go fast and buy it when it comes out; especially when we all have such huge backlogs anyway.

In regards to buying things used after they come out, I'm generally against that practice, since I'd prefer that Capcom or Atlus or whoever get my money for their product, not Gamestop.

I don't think O6 means buying used I think he means waiting until the new versions are just way cheaper when they get released as "classics" and they're like $20 or whatever.

They are, but there also exist charge packs for the 360 controllers. Mostly a way to get more money out of you by having to buy that as well as a controller.

So you at least admit that there's an issue here.

I don't, I've never had a problem with my controllers.

And I know you're thinking, "Well if all the characters weren't done, why even release it?" Because I had a bunch of fun just with the original four characters and fifth unlockable (Nega Scott)--in fact, I didn't even unlock Nega Scott until after Knives came out. Plus, the game *was* rushed so it could meet the theater deadline for the movie--TONS of stuff was cut from it. But I enjoyed the game just fine *without* the extra character; so paying the extra $2 to extend the life of my game a little was fine.

Fact is, games have deadlines, and DLC actually allows them to extend the life of the game and give us some of that extra stuff that, previously, would just get cut. For example, let's look at Metroid Prime. Did you know Kraid was going to be in it? He was, for real. But they didn't have enough time to finish him and his area, so they cut it. If Metroid Prime was released on a console now (let's pretend the Wii has DLC), then they might have been able to have, like, "Kraid's Lair" DLC, giving you a whole new area of cut content to explore. You might say, "Why not just delay the game until Kraid was done?" Because you can only delay a game for so long. LA Noire was in development since at least 2004--that's over 'seven years' of development, and the game still had things cut from it. You can't just infinitely work on a game, because developing games is a business, and if you don't deliver product on a decent enough timetable, you lose money. Team Bondi developed LA Noire for seven years, and the costs of developing it over that amount of time were so great that even with the massive financial success of that game, they had to go bankrupt and close down the studio. You can't just work on a game forever--at some point, somebody has to say, Okay, that's enough, no more. DLC lets us get some of that stuff that wasn't finished.

I guess it depends on how you play games. Remember that I'm a fighting game diehard, and you fucking *need* to have all the characters in those because dammit, that's how competitive play works. Scott Pilgrim is a blast, but no one plays it seriously/competitively so you don't need everything on hand. If your friend comes over to play and whines that you don't have Knives you just say 'Shut the hell up and play Steven Stills like a real man'. But if he comes over and wants to use Platinum on BBCS because that's his fucking main, and I don't have her because whatever, then we're going to have an issue. It's like not having all the guns in a shooter, because some were DLC (has any series done that, actually? I'm not sure. I know one of the Gran Turismos pulled that shit with a bunch of the cars).

Ok, missing guns and cars would suck, but in the end I think DLC really just depends on how badly you want what's in the DLC. When I bought WFC I really wanted Shockwave but could give a toss about the other characters. Later I bought the full DLC because I wanted to enjoy the new maps. But I wouldn't have felt like I was missing something without it. Now I can see what you're saying about MvC with a bajillion new characters and shit, that's over kill. You wanna add that much more stuff? Release a new game.

REAL EDIT: Some of this sounds more inflammatory than it's supposed to be. I think I'm in a mood today; I just got into an argument with someone else over something unrelated on Twitter. I think the main thing here is that I'm hearing you bring up things that are directly counter to my own experiences. It's a bit of Matrix shock, you know, someone whose opinion I trust telling me that the sky really is green when all this time I've thought it was blue. So I'm rather violently going "The fuck it is!"

Dude, it's cool, you're not offending me or anything. Just realize that I've apparently had different experiences with video games than you have. We're clearly different sorts of gamers, so some disparity is to be expected. It's an interesting discussion, anyway. I honestly hope *I'm* not coming off as too inflammatory.

Ah.. this is an amusing debate. Sorry Prowl, I'm with O6 on this one. In the 3+ years that I've had my 360 I haven't had any of the problems you've mentioned. I can't help wondering what you were playing and on what platform? I know you mentioned MGS4 but I haven't played that one and I know that some of the previous generation systems attempted online gaming with mixed results. The process didn't seem to get refined until the 360, which all of my experiences have been pretty good. I remember when the SNES and Genesis had X-Band and that was on dial-up and it was a good attempt at the time for what was available but it had certainly had it's issues. I also remember that the PS2 at one point had some sort of add on for online play but I seem to recall that it failed epically as well. So yeah, online play had a lot of problems in the beginning but really those issues should all be a thing of the past.

See, and this is one of the cores of my issue: Online is too goddamn integrated into gaming now. What with DLC and updates and online-only multiplayer, this means that if I actually want to buy a current-gen console and get the Full Experience,

Ok, I get what you're saying. The point at which I jump on your bandwagon is when everything is so god damned interconnected that you have to pay everybody. Like when they have preorders and you have exclusive character at one store and another at a different store and so on and so on. What the fuck? It's not enough that the game developers have to be in bed with Microsoft so that XBL can do the money grab but now the retailers have to get in on it too? Fuck me corporations are extra greedy these days. It's no wonder O6 plays the way he does, you'd go mad otherwise. Especially since all of that exclusive shit winds up being available later anyway. So what does the consumer really get out of preordering? The get boned that's what. There's really no point in buying a game system or game when it comes out anymore because they just wind up being dirt cheap later.

Wait what was I saying? Oh well. Yeah, I guess you lose out on the Full Experience if you feel you HAVE to play every mode with every character, but I get the impression that most gamers don't do that nowadays. Most people seem to favor one mode or the other. Now, I will say that the lack of non online multiplayer is one thing that really irritated me about WFC. There's no way to just hook up another controller and play head to head split screen or something and that really just seems like that would have been something they could have easily added if they wanted to.

I'm gonna have to drop $100+ dollars on a router as well (currently my internets plug directly into my computer, like in Amish country).

Ok, I'm getting the impression that most of your online gaming problems stem not from the gaming mechanics itself, but the fact that you have shitty internet and have to use goofy and complicated workarounds as a result. Just go to Best Buy, pony up the $20 for a Lynksis router. Done, done and done. Actually it might be more than that, but not by much and it definitely shouldn't cost $100. Even I have a router and I didn't pay anywhere near that. Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't be blaming the games and systems for internet problems that have nothing to do with the games themselves.

[BWprowl]

Gah, double post, ignore this one, I thought there was a way to delete these things?

[BWprowl]

They are, but there also exist charge packs for the 360 controllers. Mostly a way to get more money out of you by having to buy that as well as a controller.

So you at least admit that there's an issue here.

I don't, I've never had a problem with my controllers.

What sort of crazy alien batteries are you using?

Ok, missing guns and cars would suck, but in the end I think DLC really just depends on how badly you want what's in the DLC. When I bought WFC I really wanted Shockwave but could give a toss about the other characters. Later I bought the full DLC because I wanted to enjoy the new maps. But I wouldn't have felt like I was missing something without it. Now I can see what you're saying about MvC with a bajillion new characters and shit, that's over kill. You wanna add that much more stuff? Release a new game.

Ultimate MvC3, the one with the dozen new characters and extra modes and such, actually is a separate/new game, which is the way I prefer they do such things.

Ok, I'm getting the impression that most of your online gaming problems stem not from the gaming mechanics itself, but the fact that you have shitty internet and have to use goofy and complicated workarounds as a result. Just go to Best Buy, pony up the $20 for a Lynksis router. Done, done and done. Actually it might be more than that, but not by much and it definitely shouldn't cost $100. Even I have a router and I didn't pay anywhere near that. Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't be blaming the games and systems for internet problems that have nothing to do with the games themselves.

Hey, the only problem I've experienced that *might* be related to that was the Heavy Rain updating thing, and the slowness of that was only half the problem (the other half being that it hijacked my gametime to do the update). Everything else is just general issues, or frustration with online components in general, not how fast/slow/complicated said internet is. For the record, my internet connection is *awesome* (Watch me torrent this HD season of some toku show! Boom, it's already done!), just not wireless.

[Onslaught Six]

Did MGS4 *require* you to install the game to the hard drive? Or did you optionally do this? Because like I said, I've never had a game that required me to install it to the hard drive beyond downloading some miniscule (we're talking 500k) updates, and I've basically seen the results of installing a game in action--it loads a teeny tiny bit faster. Striderneko has Left 4 Dead 2 installed on his hard drive, and we play it online semi-frequently--he gets about an extra second or two of time inside the safe room before mine loads. Woooo isn't that extra boost great? Besiding that, I don't even have a hard drive, just the flash drives, so I don't even think the boost would do that much.

MGS4 makes you do 'data installations' after each chapter/portion of the game. This basically involves having the game stop on you and watching a progress meter for fifteen or so minutes while Snake smokes and little tips/info tidbits pop up. This is not optional. Wheee....

Wow! That's bullshit. But MGS4 was also a PS3 launch title, so maybe they fixed that.

For the record, who the hell buys a shooter to play the single player?

Me, dude! I love single player FPS. You know how everybody says Quake 2 was awesome but they only ever remember the multiplayer? I never played the multiplayer in Quake 2. I've been die-hard single player FPS for years. Half-Life, Portal, Doom, Duke Nukem, you name it. Hell, I bought Turok's 360 remake, a game where even though there *is* multiplayer, no one plays it. (Also, to be fair, I was trying to play the co-op online. So, single player with a friend.)

Hey, it happened on the PS3, so it may be a PS3 thing. That said, the length of the procedure on my end may be attributed to the fact that I was downloading the update via a neighbor's wi-fi, since I don't have wireless internet here. I'll make a point of that later on.

That could have something to do with it too. My 360 is wired because it's the older Arcade--the last ones they made, actually, because I got it the day the new "slim" ones came out and the price dropped like a rock on the old ones. These didn't have built-in wifi and needed a 'one hundred fucking dollar' adapter to use it. Fuck that!

The thing to understand about Capcom's now-infamous game updates is that there's more to them than just new characters. Generally, the game undergoes some reworking with each new release, with existing characters getting new moves, old moves getting new properties, and the whole thing getting rejiggered for different play options and balance issues. Often new levels and story elements get put in as well. It's a new, reworked product, not just the old one with some new stuff stuck in. For comparison, Ultimate MvC3 features twelve new characters, and multiple new modes, including that Heroes vs. Heralds thing that A) acts almost like a completely different game and B) is actually coming out as DLC because they're rushing an unfinished product to market. Jill and Shuma-Gorath on the other hand, were just two additional characters that got released for purchase less than a month after the original game came out. People could've waited an extra month for them to stick the last two characters in.

Except they weren't ready then and Capcom had a deadline to hit. These days, more than ever, a game getting delayed pisses lots of people off. Not me though, usually, because I'm actually in your camp--I'd rather they delay the game and make it awesome than rush out a piece of shit. However, now they do actually have the tools to improve a game after it's released. Look at Hydrophobia, an XBLA game I don't own but am really interested in getting at some point. It was released and the reaction was kind of mediocre and some people had some complaints. So the developers actually 'listened' and rejiggered the parts of the game that sucked and made them awesome, and then knocked $5 off the price. Oh, and the update was free for anyone who already owned the game.

All that extra rebalancing (which IMO is fucking retarded; the fighting game community pisses me off SO FUCKING MUCH) and extra characters could all have easily been DLC. Look at Rock Band, a game that's been consistently getting DLC like every week since its original release; RB2 and 3 only came out when there were substantial hardware and gameplay improvements, not just for More Songs.

In regards to buying things used after they come out, I'm generally against that practice, since I'd prefer that Capcom or Atlus or whoever get my money for their product, not Gamestop.

So don't buy them used. Buy them new on Amazon or at Best Buy or something. Amazon has actually been super-competitive lately with their pricing. Sonic Generations was $37 when it was released 'on Tuesday.'

Here's the thing, though--buying the game new doesn't even *directly* support the original developer. Yes, really. We all know how distribution works. Gamestop or Amazon or whoever buys x amount of copies from the publisher. Those copies sitting on the shelf at Gamestop or in Amazon's warehouse? They're already paid for. The developer got their money. The only way the developer would get any 'more' money is if you somehow bought enough copies for Gamestop or Amazon to have to order more from the publisher. And yeah--obviously if *everybody* bought their copies new, that would happen. And when a game is first released? Yeah, that's what happens. That's why I buy games I know I really want to see do well on launch day. I bought Portal 2 and Duke Nukem Forever on launch day because I wanted to support Valve and Gearbox. I bought LA Noire used a few months after it came out because Rockstar and Team Bondi already made all or most of the money they were 'ever' going to make off of it, and Team Bondi already filed for bankruptcy!

So you at least admit that there's an issue here.

Of course. I never said the 360 was perfect. But I have tons of batteries that cost next to nothing to buy that last me several months before I even have to change the batteries.

I guess it depends on how you play games. Remember that I'm a fighting game diehard, and you fucking *need* to have all the characters in those because dammit, that's how competitive play works. Scott Pilgrim is a blast, but no one plays it seriously/competitively so you don't need everything on hand. If your friend comes over to play and whines that you don't have Knives you just say 'Shut the hell up and play Steven Stills like a real man'. But if he comes over and wants to use Platinum on BBCS because that's his fucking main, and I don't have her because whatever, then we're going to have an issue. It's like not having all the guns in a shooter, because some were DLC (has any series done that, actually? I'm not sure. I know one of the Gran Turismos pulled that shit with a bunch of the cars).

I seem to recall Borderlands having some guns as DLC, but Borderlands is a co-op game rather than deathmatch.

And see, that's the thing, I don't...understand competitive gaming as a thing. If my friend comes over and wants to use Mewtwo in Super Smash Bros. Melee well he's shit out of fucking luck because I haven't unlocked Mewtwo yet. (I have before. I restarted my save recently.) I don't understand "maining" a character. I mean I play Link in Smash Bros. games but I've played everybody and tried to get good at all of them characters. To me, having more characters just means there's more shit I have to learn. Someone's experience with a game shouldn't be so wrapped up in focusing on being good at 'one character' in the game, that's fucking bullshit and, to me at least, it means you suck dick at the game and can't adapt to other characters or playstyles.

In Left 4 Dead 1, the weapons were all pretty easily available--at basically every stop, there'd be a fresh shotgun, rifle and machine gun (or upgraded versions thereof) and a new stockpile of ammo. I guess Valve thought it was too easy because in Left 4 Dead 2 it's a *lot* more uneven. In L4D1 I always used the shotgun variants, because shotguns are awesome and mesh well with the way I play (rush in like an idiot, kill everything, escape within an inch of my life) but L4D2's more uneven weapon and ammo placement basically forces me to occasionally use a machine gun or melee weapons--and because of that I found that I was actually pretty good at machine guns too. Not having my "main" weapon forced me to get good at using other weapons. Not having your "main" character forces you (or your friend) to not suck complete dick at the entire rest of the game.

Dude, it's cool, you're not offending me or anything. Just realize that I've apparently had different experiences with video games than you have. We're clearly different sorts of gamers, so some disparity is to be expected. It's an interesting discussion, anyway. I honestly hope *I'm* not coming off as too inflammatory.

Are we seriously apologising to each other for maybe offending each other when nobody is offended? When did this place become so...nice? This needs to change. MODERN CONSOLES ARE AWESOME AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE YOU'RE A RAGING FAGGOT WHO PROBABLY SUCKS COCKS. And only raging faggots have a pink DSi.

See, and this is one of the cores of my issue: Online is too goddamn integrated into gaming now. What with DLC and updates and online-only multiplayer, this means that if I actually want to buy a current-gen console and get the Full Experience, I'm gonna have to drop $100+ dollars on a router as well (currently my internets plug directly into my computer, like in Amish country), plus money for their extra-premium-gold online service so I can actually play their games online. Sheesh.

It's 2011, why the fuck don't you have a router? Seriously. Shit, my internet *came* with a router, with like four ports and wireless and everything. Also, some companies are actively encouraging local co-op again, Valve most notably. (And a router is only like fifty bucks. You're an adult, you can afford that.)

And XBLA is actually relatively cheap. It's $60/year, yeah, which *sounds* like a lot until you figure out it's $5/month. Also, they run all kinds of promotions--my current sub is going off paying $10 for three months. And considering how reliable it usually is, I've never been dissatisfied with the service as a whole.

I think part of me is just like, "I'm 22 now, I have disposable income; if I don't spend it on shit like this I'll end up spending it on toys or comics or something else and right now I seriously do not really have room for those things." Plus NOTHING IS COMING OUT so right now I'm pretty okay with it.

Look, I like PC gaming, but if I want that experience I'll goddamn play some PC games. Maybe I'm getting too old, but I yearn for the days when I could just plug a Box into my TV, put another Box in that, and video games would come out without any goofy complications. *Looks over at DLC-capable, firmware-updating 3DS* Christ, I can't even get that experience out of portables anymore...

It's really not that bad though!

Now, I will say that the lack of non online multiplayer is one thing that really irritated me about WFC. There's no way to just hook up another controller and play head to head split screen or something and that really just seems like that would have been something they could have easily added if they wanted to.

I actually don't think they could have. WFC has kind of a crowded HUD and, given the way the game looks, it might just be even 'more' confusing if the screen was split.

Ultimate MvC3, the one with the dozen new characters and extra modes and such, actually is a separate/new game, which is the way I prefer they do such things.

See, to 'me,' that's bullshit. I'd rather they release them all as DLC. I don't want to pay $40-60 and only get the new shit, since I probably already have the game. (In fact, KNOWING this shit would happen is exactly why I didn't buy MvC3.) I'd rather my game continue to be supported by simply adding the new characters in ways that make sense. Because you can keep adding DLC for 'years' if you want to. Left 4 Dead 2 is STILL getting new maps a few YEARS later. To me, why support Capcom's dickish policy of rereleasing the game at waaaay more than it should be when they could just as easily fuck me over and do "Super Ultimate MvC3" a year down the road, adding eight more characters and bullshit "balancing" that could be fixed just as easily with a patch and DLC?

Japan doesn't "get" DLC, as far as I can tell. They charge way too fucking much for it and they don't understand how it's supposed to work. Inafune was right, Japan development in general is in the fucking shitter. The west is where it's at right now. I got Nier at the beginning of the year and it's just...it feels so *old.* It reminds me of playing Ocarina of Time, and not in a good way. (I'm talking bullshit like jumping into invisible walls and not being able to jump off certain cliffs and shit. Fuck that! It's 2011!) And half the game isn't even fucking voice acted. (And I don't mean, like, inconsequential conversations don't have voice acting. I mean I will have a conversation, and SOME LINES WILL HAVE VOICE ACTING AND SOME WON'T.) Look at Mega Man 10--they're charging a couple bucks 'individually' for each Mege Man Killer stage. That's insane.

[Onslaught Six]

Well, if you consider Mass Effect 2 as a shooter, then yes, a shooter has made some weapons DLC-only. It's strictly single-player though, so you're not going to feel disadvantaged against other players or some such. On the other hand, ME3 is supposed to have online modes, so I don't know how significant this practice of DLC weapons is gonna be.

I think ME3's multiplayer is all co-op. You'll form a squad of various race members (I think human, Asari, Turian and Krogan are confirmed) and you'll go off and do various missions. I don't think it's competitive-based at all, and it's confirmed that these storylines will be linked to Shep's but s/he won't be involved in them.

[BWprowl]

That could have something to do with it too. My 360 is wired because it's the older Arcade--the last ones they made, actually, because I got it the day the new "slim" ones came out and the price dropped like a rock on the old ones. These didn't have built-in wifi and needed a 'one hundred fucking dollar' adapter to use it. Fuck that!

I suppose I could *buy a longer Ethernet cable* and plug that into whatever console I end up getting, as a quick and dirty solution.

All that extra rebalancing (which IMO is fucking retarded; the fighting game community pisses me off SO FUCKING MUCH)

Why so? I’m genuinely interested because, you know, sky is green, everything is wrong, this is not my beautiful house these are not my beautiful kids.

and extra characters could all have easily been DLC. Look at Rock Band, a game that's been consistently getting DLC like every week since its original release; RB2 and 3 only came out when there were substantial hardware and gameplay improvements, not just for More Songs.

I’d argue that the extra modes and rebalancing they stick into stuff like UMvC3 and BlazBlue Continuum Shift qualify as ‘gameplay improvements’, but what I really need to hone in on here is that irregular patching is fucking *terrible* for fighting games, in my opinion. Capcom tried it with the original MvC3, and it drove me nuts. Random fixes and changes every other week completely fucks with the meta of a fighting game. You could be practicing along, really learning your shit as Spencer, and then Capcom drops a patch that completely nerfs half the stuff you were using as him. Best case scenario, you have to re-learn/formulate strategies with him or just switch to something else, and worst case scenario is that they drop that BS the day before you go to a tournament, and now you’re really screwed. Actual later-released, new-box versions of the games are better for this sort of thing, since it gives people time to hear about and prepare for what all the changes are going to be, and ensures that there’ll be some sort of *standard* in place for a little while, at least. Plus it means people have to actually learn to deal with strategies that they think are being abused, leading to a more liquid meta as old stuff falls out of favor as people learn new stuff to counter it, rather than just whining at Capcom until they drop a nerf patch on Sentinel because some babies are having too hard a time beating him.

Here's the thing, though--buying the game new doesn't even *directly* support the original developer. Yes, really. We all know how distribution works. Gamestop or Amazon or whoever buys x amount of copies from the publisher. Those copies sitting on the shelf at Gamestop or in Amazon's warehouse? They're already paid for. The developer got their money. The only way the developer would get any 'more' money is if you somehow bought enough copies for Gamestop or Amazon to have to order more from the publisher. And yeah--obviously if *everybody* bought their copies new, that would happen. And when a game is first released? Yeah, that's what happens. That's why I buy games I know I really want to see do well on launch day. I bought Portal 2 and Duke Nukem Forever on launch day because I wanted to support Valve and Gearbox. I bought LA Noire used a few months after it came out because Rockstar and Team Bondi already made all or most of the money they were 'ever' going to make off of it, and Team Bondi already filed for bankruptcy!

I get what you’re saying here, but I’d still rather buy a game new regardless so the company can record a sale from a game they sold to Best Buy or whoever, rather than giving Gamestop more money for a game they’ve already sold and made money from like five times.

Of course. I never said the 360 was perfect. But I have tons of batteries that cost next to nothing to buy that last me several months before I even have to change the batteries.

I wish my Friends With Xbox 360s were more like you. Dumbshits *never* have batteries handy.

And see, that's the thing, I don't...understand competitive gaming as a thing. If my friend comes over and wants to use Mewtwo in Super Smash Bros. Melee well he's shit out of fucking luck because I haven't unlocked Mewtwo yet. (I have before. I restarted my save recently.) I don't understand "maining" a character. I mean I play Link in Smash Bros. games but I've played everybody and tried to get good at all of them characters. To me, having more characters just means there's more shit I have to learn. Someone's experience with a game shouldn't be so wrapped up in focusing on being good at 'one character' in the game, that's fucking bullshit and, to me at least, it means you suck dick at the game and can't adapt to other characters or playstyles.

(First off, I’ll just say that in my opinion, Smash Bros. is shit as a fighting game and has no business being played competitively)

Anyway, do me a favor. Hit up Youtube or whatever and watch some competitive (like Evo or some other tournament) footage of Street Fighter or Marvel vs. Capcom or Guilty Gear or something (I’d link you to some cool stuff, but I’m at work right now. Mayber later). Then come back and try to tell me you’re ‘better’ at the game than these people because you can play as all the characters. Fighting games have a bunch of characters *because* lots of people are supposed to play them in different ways, with different strategies all bouncing off each other. Think of the characters and moves like cards in a deckbuilding game- of course you’re not supposed to use all the cards, that’s insane and impossible. You come up with a strategy and then construct a deck that works best for that for you, then other people do the same for them, and you all play those against each other and adjust your strategies as you play more games and grow accordingly. These games have lots of characters so every person can find options that work for them, not so one guy can play the game by himself and think he’s the best just because he knows everyone’s moves. Yeah, I *could* switch to Rufus because He’s Fun and I could use a rushdown style or whatever, but it works vastly better for me to play Ken so I can score a knockdown and start playing wakeup mix-up games with people.

In Left 4 Dead 1, the weapons were all pretty easily available--at basically every stop, there'd be a fresh shotgun, rifle and machine gun (or upgraded versions thereof) and a new stockpile of ammo. I guess Valve thought it was too easy because in Left 4 Dead 2 it's a *lot* more uneven. In L4D1 I always used the shotgun variants, because shotguns are awesome and mesh well with the way I play (rush in like an idiot, kill everything, escape within an inch of my life) but L4D2's more uneven weapon and ammo placement basically forces me to occasionally use a machine gun or melee weapons--and because of that I found that I was actually pretty good at machine guns too. Not having my "main" weapon forced me to get good at using other weapons. Not having your "main" character forces you (or your friend) to not suck complete dick at the entire rest of the game.

I see what you’re saying in this case, since you’d want to be prepared for situations in which you couldn’t use particular weapons. Plus, L4D isn’t competitive and you’re not concerned about ‘beating’ other players, so it can be fun to experiment with new weapons and try different runs with different strategies.

Are we seriously apologising to each other for maybe offending each other when nobody is offended? When did this place become so...nice? This needs to change. MODERN CONSOLES ARE AWESOME AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE YOU'RE A RAGING FAGGOT WHO PROBABLY SUCKS COCKS. And only raging faggots have a pink DSi.

Wow, it’s a good thing I don’t have a pink DSi then. If I did, I’d probably just pawn it off on some queer and his girlfriend.

It's 2011, why the fuck don't you have a router? Seriously. Shit, my internet *came* with a router, with like four ports and wireless and everything. Also, some companies are actively encouraging local co-op again, Valve most notably. (And a router is only like fifty bucks. You're an adult, you can afford that.)

They offered me a router when they were setting up my internet, but it cost Extra Money and I didn’t need it at the time, so I declined. The other thing you need to remember in this case is that I can be fabulously cheap about stuff sometimes.

See, to 'me,' that's bullshit. I'd rather they release them all as DLC. I don't want to pay $40-60 and only get the new shit, since I probably already have the game. (In fact, KNOWING this shit would happen is exactly why I didn't buy MvC3.) I'd rather my game continue to be supported by simply adding the new characters in ways that make sense. Because you can keep adding DLC for 'years' if you want to. Left 4 Dead 2 is STILL getting new maps a few YEARS later. To me, why support Capcom's dickish policy of rereleasing the game at waaaay more than it should be when they could just as easily fuck me over and do "Super Ultimate MvC3" a year down the road, adding eight more characters and bullshit "balancing" that could be fixed just as easily with a patch and DLC?

I’ll give props to Capcom on Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition on this one. That AE update is being released both as a separate box for people who never bought a previous version of the game, and as a downloadable update for those who already own an earlier disc. Compromise, that’s the way.

[Onslaught Six]

I suppose I could *buy a longer Ethernet cable* and plug that into whatever console I end up getting, as a quick and dirty solution.

Yeah dude, do that. Cat5 cable is like the cheapest shit ever.

All that extra rebalancing (which IMO is fucking retarded; the fighting game community pisses me off SO FUCKING MUCH)

Why so? I’m genuinely interested because, you know, sky is green, everything is wrong, this is not my beautiful house these are not my beautiful kids.

THIS IS NOT MY HAWSE! [/Tommy Wiseau]

I just get this air of elitism and "Well they nerfed Ryu in this release" and I'm just like what the fuck man, why do they need to change the way the characters work? They apparently worked well enough in testing, there is zero reason to change them in the next release other than to pander to some fanboy bitching. If Ryu or Akuma or whoever is winning more matches on average? Guess what? Then Ryu kicks ass. Not every character should be able to beat every other character. The game cannot be, and will NEVER be, entirely balanced, and as soon as people accept that the better off it'll be. But then, of course, you get the whole "Well then tournaments would just be full of people playing as Ryu/Akuma/whoever!" Fucking good! Maybe then "professional tournaments" and this bullshit elitism culture will fucking die off for good. Nobody--no matter how fucking good you are--should EARN MONEY by PLAYING VIDEO GAMES REALLY GOOD.

This is me speaking as someone who sucks shit at fighting games and couldn't hold his own in the first round of a tournament. And you know why? Because I don't sit around for ten hours a fucking day trying to memorize how to do a fucking Hadoken. I want to be able to pick up my game and be able to do well at it against pretty much 'anybody.' A game like Super Smash Bros. is like that, and you can fully acknowledge that there are characters who will rape your ass if you play as that character against these other characters, and you have to be an exceptionally good player to overcome that handicap. THAT is the challenge. If you try and "balance" the entire game, all you really do is pander to people who just suck too much at the game to begin with.

I’d argue that the extra modes and rebalancing they stick into stuff like UMvC3 and BlazBlue Continuum Shift qualify as ‘gameplay improvements’, but what I really need to hone in on here is that irregular patching is fucking *terrible* for fighting games, in my opinion. Capcom tried it with the original MvC3, and it drove me nuts. Random fixes and changes every other week completely fucks with the meta of a fighting game. You could be practicing along, really learning your shit as Spencer, and then Capcom drops a patch that completely nerfs half the stuff you were using as him. Best case scenario, you have to re-learn/formulate strategies with him or just switch to something else, and worst case scenario is that they drop that BS the day before you go to a tournament, and now you’re really screwed. Actual later-released, new-box versions of the games are better for this sort of thing, since it gives people time to hear about and prepare for what all the changes are going to be, and ensures that there’ll be some sort of *standard* in place for a little while, at least. Plus it means people have to actually learn to deal with strategies that they think are being abused, leading to a more liquid meta as old stuff falls out of favor as people learn new stuff to counter it, rather than just whining at Capcom until they drop a nerf patch on Sentinel because some babies are having too hard a time beating him.

See above.

I get what you’re saying here, but I’d still rather buy a game new regardless so the company can record a sale from a game they sold to Best Buy or whoever, rather than giving Gamestop more money for a game they’ve already sold and made money from like five times.

And I can understand this--but even new games drop in price very quickly these days. Amazon had LA Noire for $40 something like a month after it came out. Portal 2 hit the same 'two weeks' after its release.

I wish my Friends With Xbox 360s were more like you. Dumbshits *never* have batteries handy.

I knew that these things took batteries, so the day I bought my 360 I bought an 8-pack of AAs from the dollar store. Cost me like three bucks. I kept it next to my TV. Now whenever my controller dies frequently enough (turns off when I have rumble on), I take them out of there. I 'always' make sure there's batteries there. Because they cost like three bucks. There's no excuse.

(First off, I’ll just say that in my opinion, Smash Bros. is shit as a fighting game and has no business being played competitively)

Exactly! I knew these assholes in college who took Melee way too seriously (doing that "wavedashing" glitch shit that some people swear up and down is intended) and claimed Brawl was nerfed as shit and terrible. These fuckers *defined* "FINAL DESTINATION; NO ITEMS." One time our anime club ran a fundraising tournament and one of these dicks just flat-out left when he found out the Mario Rainbow Cruise level was eligible. Apparently the level wasn't "fair." And to me, that's like, that's the fucking point, the randomness, it's fun. You never know if you're going to win because of skill or because of environmental effects--but if you don't suck ass, it'll usually be skill.

Anyway, do me a favor. Hit up Youtube or whatever and watch some competitive (like Evo or some other tournament) footage of Street Fighter or Marvel vs. Capcom or Guilty Gear or something (I’d link you to some cool stuff, but I’m at work right now. Mayber later). Then come back and try to tell me you’re ‘better’ at the game than these people because you can play as all the characters. Fighting games have a bunch of characters *because* lots of people are supposed to play them in different ways, with different strategies all bouncing off each other. Think of the characters and moves like cards in a deckbuilding game- of course you’re not supposed to use all the cards, that’s insane and impossible. You come up with a strategy and then construct a deck that works best for that for you, then other people do the same for them, and you all play those against each other and adjust your strategies as you play more games and grow accordingly. These games have lots of characters so every person can find options that work for them, not so one guy can play the game by himself and think he’s the best just because he knows everyone’s moves. Yeah, I *could* switch to Rufus because He’s Fun and I could use a rushdown style or whatever, but it works vastly better for me to play Ken so I can score a knockdown and start playing wakeup mix-up games with people.

As soon as people start talking about shit like "Rushdowns" and "Tank style" or whatever, that's where I stop giving a fuck. I seriously do not have enough time in my life to devote to working out complicated strategies for games where dudes punch each other in the face.

Actually, I think *that's* the fucking fundamental flaw in the "competitive fighting game" thing for me. These are games were dudes are hitting each other! They should not be this fucking complicated! If these guys were obsessing over fucking chess or Starcraft or Advance Wars or something, okay. *That's* a strategy game. These are "fighting" games, and yet it seems, to me, like there's not a whole lot of actual fighting going on in the talks--all this bullshit about nerfing and strategies and juggling and bullshit. To me, (and I mean this without offense to you) it sounds like a bunch of nerds who are playing complicated "fighting" games so they seem like Tough Guys rather than playing a game that's supposed to be based around strategy like an RTS or something.

(Then again, I have problems with the competitive RTS guys too. I have problems with anybody who take video games that seriously, I guess. I just get on and fuck around. I don't care if I win or lose. I play to have fun and do neat shit.)

I see what you’re saying in this case, since you’d want to be prepared for situations in which you couldn’t use particular weapons. Plus, L4D isn’t competitive and you’re not concerned about ‘beating’ other players, so it can be fun to experiment with new weapons and try different runs with different strategies.

I just feel like raw skill should be the focus rather than who has the best strategy or who recently got nerfed or who's playing a certain character.

Are we seriously apologising to each other for maybe offending each other when nobody is offended? When did this place become so...nice? This needs to change. MODERN CONSOLES ARE AWESOME AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE YOU'RE A RAGING FAGGOT WHO PROBABLY SUCKS COCKS. And only raging faggots have a pink DSi.

Wow, it’s a good thing I don’t have a pink DSi then. If I did, I’d probably just pawn it off on some queer and his girlfriend.

Yeah I don't know who the cock polisher who would have bought that might be. If he comes around here I'll kick his ass. (Have we alienated anybody yet?)

They offered me a router when they were setting up my internet, but it cost Extra Money and I didn’t need it at the time, so I declined. The other thing you need to remember in this case is that I can be fabulously cheap about stuff sometimes.

Wait, you let them set up your Internet? You didn't just say, "No thanks, send me the stuff, I'll do it myself?" It's plugging wires into walls, man. (Then again, my father was an electrician. He taught me that you should never pay anyone to do something you can do yourself.)

I’ll give props to Capcom on Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition on this one. That AE update is being released both as a separate box for people who never bought a previous version of the game, and as a downloadable update for those who already own an earlier disc. Compromise, that’s the way.

After they already fucked over everybody who bought Street Fighter 4 by releasing SSF4.

[BWprowl]

THIS IS NOT MY HAWSE! [/Tommy Wiseau]

I just get this air of elitism and "Well they nerfed Ryu in this release" and I'm just like what the fuck man, why do they need to change the way the characters work? They apparently worked well enough in testing, there is zero reason to change them in the next release other than to pander to some fanboy bitching. If Ryu or Akuma or whoever is winning more matches on average? Guess what? Then Ryu kicks ass. Not every character should be able to beat every other character. The game cannot be, and will NEVER be, entirely balanced, and as soon as people accept that the better off it'll be. But then, of course, you get the whole "Well then tournaments would just be full of people playing as Ryu/Akuma/whoever!" Fucking good! Maybe then "professional tournaments" and this bullshit elitism culture will fucking die off for good. Nobody--no matter how fucking good you are--should EARN MONEY by PLAYING VIDEO GAMES REALLY GOOD.

I get where you’re coming from. I love watching pro football but even I think those guys are overpaid.

Here’s the thing: Testing will catch a lot of glitches and bugs and weird shit, but even you acknowledged that things get through. I doesn’t matter how refined the company thinks something is, as soon as it hits public and the insane pro-level players start messing with new characters, they’re going to discover strategies and techniques that the programmers never even *thought* to intend. That’s what makes the community interesting, as more people trip over crazy, seemingly-powerful shit, and other people develop strategies to beat that stuff, and round and round we go. Yes, every now and then something genuinely out of line pops up, and that’s what the new versions of the game are for (they also take things the opposite direction, often bringing lower-tier characters up so they don’t suck anymore). I agree, they’ll never get things perfect, and there will always be characters who it’s easier to win with, but like you said, that’s part of the game. Street Fighter III Third Strike is one of my absolute favorite fighting games of all time, and 90% of competitive play is between just Ken, Yun, and Chun-Li. Really though, that just makes it even more amusing when some badass comes in with Q and fucks everyone up out of nowhere.

I’m actually pretty happy with SSF4’s main nerf of Ken (getting rid of his long-overpowered Shippu Jinrai Kyaku) since even though I loved the move, he’s a lot more interesting to play now that I don’t have that to rely on anymore.

This is me speaking as someone who sucks shit at fighting games and couldn't hold his own in the first round of a tournament. And you know why? Because I don't sit around for ten hours a fucking day trying to memorize how to do a fucking Hadoken.

Hadoken’s easy. Quarter-circle-forward punch. Pretty much all fighting game moves are based on quarter-circles, you can pick 9/10 characters in any given game, just start spamming QC’s and Z’s in different directions with different buttons and you’d get special moves to come out. Now, like playing Melty Blood and trying to learn various characters’ Reverse Beat BnBs, or stuff like Satsuki’s EX Anti-Air Sacchin Arm loop, I could see as off-putting to spending time on.

I want to be able to pick up my game and be able to do well at it against pretty much 'anybody.' A game like Super Smash Bros. is like that, and you can fully acknowledge that there are characters who will rape your ass if you play as that character against these other characters, and you have to be an exceptionally good player to overcome that handicap. THAT is the challenge. If you try and "balance" the entire game, all you really do is pander to people who just suck too much at the game to begin with.

I guess I’m different then, since I’d rather put in a bit of practice to become *awesome* at a game, particularly one with a thriving community of people who are already *awesome* at it.

I honestly agree with you on balancing though, that’s what I was talking about with patches. Bring out a new game every now and then with new characters and sweeping changes that make it so that any dumbass can’t stomp all over everyone with Xianghua anymore, and you’re good. When you patch stuff every other week, you’re robbing the players of the chance to overcome the smaller, less legitimate issues themselves, which is what a fighting game community is there for in the first place.

One time our anime club ran a fundraising tournament and one of these dicks just flat-out left when he found out the Mario Rainbow Cruise level was eligible. Apparently the level wasn't "fair."

I hate that level because it’s zoomed out too far and I can barely see what I’m doing.

As soon as people start talking about shit like "Rushdowns" and "Tank style" or whatever, that's where I stop giving a fuck. I seriously do not have enough time in my life to devote to working out complicated strategies for games where dudes punch each other in the face.

Actually, I think *that's* the fucking fundamental flaw in the "competitive fighting game" thing for me. These are games were dudes are hitting each other! They should not be this fucking complicated! If these guys were obsessing over fucking chess or Starcraft or Advance Wars or something, okay. *That's* a strategy game. These are "fighting" games, and yet it seems, to me, like there's not a whole lot of actual fighting going on in the talks--all this bullshit about nerfing and strategies and juggling and bullshit. To me, (and I mean this without offense to you) it sounds like a bunch of nerds who are playing complicated "fighting" games so they seem like Tough Guys rather than playing a game that's supposed to be based around strategy like an RTS or something.

I kinda-sorta get where you’re coming from here, but remember that the graphics of dudes punching each other in the face is just window dressing for the actual mechanics of the game, which is what they’re really playing. At this point, all I *really* see when I play is two boxes seeing who can control the most space.

I just feel like raw skill should be the focus rather than who has the best strategy or who recently got nerfed or who's playing a certain character.

Define “raw skill”. A lot of the ‘strategies’ you see employed in high-level competitive fighting game play require some serious dexterity and timing abilities to pull off. And I think it should go without saying that having a good strategy is key to being successful at anything.

I don't know who the cock polisher who would have bought that might be. If he comes around here I'll kick his ass. (Have we alienated anybody yet?)

Oh noes somebody insulted me on the internet. Q^Q

(I just keep waiting for someone to come in and tell us to calm down and quit fighting)

Wait, you let them set up your Internet? You didn't just say, "No thanks, send me the stuff, I'll do it myself?" It's plugging wires into walls, man. (Then again, my father was an electrician. He taught me that you should never pay anyone to do something you can do yourself.)

Yeah… I’m not an electrician and wouldn’t know the first thing about setting up an internet connection. And believe me, I totally agree with you and your dad on this one! I do my own taxes, even!

After they already fucked over everybody who bought Street Fighter 4 by releasing SSF4.

I think the important thing here is that they’re learning.

[Shockwave]

I can see the argument for skill but I still think things should be balanced enough that, with the right strategy you could use any character to win. This would apply for fighting and non fighting games (WFC apparently had some balancing issues in the beginning). My problem with fighting games is when they get into all the combo stuff. Like just having dudes fight each other wasn't cool enough they had ramp up the violence level to ridiculous proportions. And, my main problem with that is mostly playing them one player vs. computer. The AI on most fighting games is so horrendous that you can't reasonably get past level 3 or 4 even on super easy before you have to switch to one of the cheap ass characters. Now, I can see getting good at particular characters because different characters use different fighting styles. Some are good at range and others are good up close and it's a different strategy for each. I think my favorite fighting game is the original Mortal Kombat. I just had a few basic moves, each character had a few special moves and that was it. And it was a perfectly well balanced game that wasn't too over the top. MK II is where they started to lose me. 3 was way over the top and eveything after that was just ridonkulous. But yeah, combo systems pretty much ruined fighting games for me.

as for batteries: Energizer E2 or E3. Actually, just Energizer in general. I use them and have only had to change my 360 batteries once. In a year.