We've got Hall of Fame voting going on up there

[JediTricks]

JT, if your way of thinking has you consider Optimus and Orion Pax separate characters, then it is totally within bounds for you to think of Hot Rod and Rodimus as separate. Fair enough.

I guess it's not that simple when you put it so succinctly. Orion Pax is the same person, yet not the same character, which is a bit of a cheat answer, but I get to cheat because they haven't made a real Orion Pax figure to force Hasbro to decide.

I rewatched TF:TM last night to get my head around the Galvatron issue a little better, and Unicron says he's giving Megatron a new body, which is different from how he expresses what's going on with the Sweeps and Scourge, and when Galvatron first shows his face, it's literally Megatron's face under a new bucket. Then again, Unicron also pulls a ship out of his ass and hands it to Galvs (who then promptly flies around in Cyclonus instead).

And I'm starting to realize that Rhinox/Tankorr might not have been the best illustration of this sort of thing for me to bring up since, yeah, it's pretty clear that they were one and the same. Might be better to ask if Silverbolt and Jetstorm are separate characters.

It is a better example, but I suppose it proves just how "shades of gray" this is, since it's an identical situation ultimately, and yet clearly you and I both see it as different for Rhinox/Tankkor.

Spoiler

The Wiki, of course, just lists all three Vehicon General alter-egos on pages separate from who they were built around, Tankorr included. But then they have Universe Tankorr just listed stuck on as part of BM Tankorr's page, even though they're, you know, separate guys from rather different universes. Then again, it's important to remember that the Wiki is run by nimrods.

Well, you could always go to the one on wikia, but... it's kinda worse.

G1 Galvatron = Megatron. IDW Galvatron =/= Megatron. And, I'm assuming the IDW one is based more on the original G1 Tech Spec which had him as a separate character anyways. So there really is no original "Galvatron" characterization beyond "Megatron on crack".

As for Rodimus/Hot Rod, Orion/Optimus, I regard them all as the same character. Hot Rod = Rodimus Prime (especially since Hasbro seems to be specifically now referring to Hot Rod as Rodimus and merging it even further). Orion Pax= Optimus Prime in my book since Optimus is just Orion reconstructed and/or matrixized. I can however, see precedent for the reverse (Orion =/= Optimus) given that IDW just made an entire issue with their "death of Optimus Prime" ending with Prime saying "I am Orion Pax again and now I can do what I want".

You make a good point re: Death of Prime's ending, but at the same time, you also just pointed out that IDW is not to be taken as the end-all here.

Actually, now that I think about this, I think in most cases where a character changes their body and name they get regarded as a new character I kind of get the impression that this is the norm. The old character "dies" even though it's technically still the same spark/life essence. BW first episode has perfectly good bots getting new forms and choosing new names, essentially becoming new characters in the process. So calling BM Jetstorm a different character than Silverbolt is not entirely without precedent. This even carries over to the UT with Tidal Wave/Mirage. And also with Demolishor and I think Cyclonus as well (didn't he become Snowcat?). Obviously there can be exceptions, like when Jetstorm changed BACK to Silverbolt. Once the original persona and name are restored then it becomes the same character.

I like this, but it doesn't entirely help here since, like your Jetstorm point, Rodimus Prime was transformed back to Hot Rod when he had the Matrix yanked from him, which we don't get a comparison to since Optimus was dying when the Matrix got taken out of him.

And yes, Cyclonus did become Snowcat, though that involved taking Unicron up the spark. I had totally forgotten that UT Tidal Wave became Mirage, good call-out on that, another reason why the UT eats dick in terms of being a reliable form of precedent: it was incredibly stupid.

All Silverbolt said was that he enjoyed being free from his code of honor, but that in itself doesn't indicate they were the same guy. The way Rhinox described it, he said he was conscious inside Tankorr able to watch and learn, but unable to reach the surface or communicate himself. I guess you might compare it to like sitting in the backseat while someone else drives. So actually the evidence in the show is that the Vehicon generals are separate entities from Silverbolt, Rhinox and Waspinator.

Damn, I forgot about that part where Rhinox said he was observing. I remember taking that more as his mind being unlocked, that he was the controlling entity the whole time, but that his spark was not entirely free to run the body the way he intended. It's been a while though, I could be off my nut there. But their sparks were driving, that was part of the point I thought, that they were the driving forces of those bodies, but that their sparks were reprogrammed to do Megatron's bidding.

Changing a name does not change who somebody is though. I use several names. But, I am still me. A character changing their name, even with a physical upgrade, does not change who/what they are.

But we're not talking about a stage name or a web presence, we're not even talking about Clark Kent / Superman, we're talking about Hot Rod / Rodimus Prime being either the same situation or not as Megatron / Galvatron.

Ultimately, if we're accepting the main G1 Galvatron and Megatron as separate characters - and to be clear, Hasbro definitely seems to be doing just that - then I am definitely not sure Hot Rod and Rodimus Prime shouldn't enjoy the same fate despite nobody really seeing it that way.


AAAAH! I don't think I answered any damned thing with this post! It's all crazy as fuck!

[Dominic]

Which is more important to this Hall of Fame voting: the passion of the individual voter, or the voice of the group even if it means a lower common denominator?

Do it by the numbers. That is how Hasbro is doing it. And, we want there to be a consistent method to counting. If you have to break a tie, toss a coin.

-Obi-Wan regards Vader and Anakin as two separate characters. In "continuity".

Kenobi was lying from any reasonable point of view.

It is not like Cheetor took a new personality. He took a new name and form. But, odds are he was still an obnoxious punk before landing on prehistoric Earth.

Damn, I forgot about that part where Rhinox said he was observing. I remember taking that more as his mind being unlocked, that he was the controlling entity the whole time, but that his spark was not entirely free to run the body the way he intended. It's been a while though, I could be off my nut there. But their sparks were driving, that was part of the point I thought, that they were the driving forces of those bodies, but that their sparks were reprogrammed to do Megatron's bidding.

At the beginning of season 2, Rhinox also says that he was an arse and deserved the death he got.

AAAAH! I don't think I answered any damned thing with this post! It's all crazy as fuck!

Are you the questioner, or the one who answers?


Dom
-seriously, count votes by the numbers. 5 points for first place, 4 for secong, and so on....

[Sparky Prime]

At the beginning of season 2, Rhinox also says that he was an arse and deserved the death he got.

Which was after his true personality had been brought back to the surface within Tankorr. Rhinox was responsible for his own actions at that point, whether or not some part of the Tankorr personality was still effecting him.

[JediTricks]

There are currently 25 different characters on our list that have received votes this year, plus 4 more from last year that I kept on the list which haven't received votes this year:
Bulkhead (Animated)
Kup
Megatron (BW)
Optimus Primal

The character with the most votes is Blackarachnia, but many of the votes are low so she's currently not going to make the list. I suspect that wouldn't have happened if I had gone with 8 or 10 votes per person instead of 5.

Do it by the numbers. That is how Hasbro is doing it. And, we want there to be a consistent method to counting. If you have to break a tie, toss a coin.

I am doing it by the numbers, and it is going to end in at least 1 tie for 2nd and probably another for 5th. If I break those ties by a coin-toss, it's not exactly fair, but if I do it "by the numbers" then the one with the fewest votes gets it because its numbers are higher in average, which doesn't feel right to me.

Kenobi was lying from any reasonable point of view.

No, I'm sorry, that's not right. Obi-Wan sees the evil Vader killing the good man that was his friend.

Are you the questioner, or the one who answers?

Both.

-seriously, count votes by the numbers. 5 points for first place, 4 for secong, and so on....

Yeah, that's what I'm doing dude, but there are ties already in the top 5 slots.

[Onslaught Six]

Do it by the numbers. That is how Hasbro is doing it. And, we want there to be a consistent method to counting. If you have to break a tie, toss a coin.

I'd say put it to a vote.


As for Megatron/Galvatron and Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime...

There's a distinct difference, in this: Hot Rod only really exists to be a contrast to Rodimus Prime. Hot Rod only exists so he can be Rodimus Prime Before Rodimus Prime. Rodimus Prime's entire 'character' relies mostly on the fact that he Used To Be Hot Rod. Galvatron, on the other hand, doesn't really need that--at least in my opinion. I hear "Galvatron" and I think three things--he's the Decepticon leader, he's from the future, and he's batshit crazy. IDW's version kind of *still* manages to violate a good chunk of those "rules" but I let it slide because IDW does a lot of things differently.

I think what it comes down to is, how much can you separate the "upgraded" character from the original source? Rodimus Prime pretty much can't exist without once having been Hot Rod--you have *never* seen the two standing around together, with disparate origins. Galvatron, though, has been a separate guy in at least one mainstream G1 continuity, and in at least one Marvel timeline he's not even directly created from Megatron, but from the merged Straxus-Megatron clone, arguably making him, at the very least, a separate guy from The Dude Who Is Megatron.

I have problems letting the UT set precedent for this kind of thing because many times there were very disparate portrayls. Let's just look at Armada Thundercracker, for example. In his techspec, profile book and the comics (if he was even in them?) he was a totally separate guy, but in the cartoon Starscream got upgraded to his colours...and said "I look like Thundercracker!" but was still called Starscream through the entire series. The same thing with Tidal Wave and Mirage, for example--only the cartoon made Tidal Wave become Mirage, the techspecs said nothing about it and the comic was cancelled. Statements from Hasbro even outright 'say' that Mirage was supposed to be a different guy, but communication problems between Hasbro and Takara led to him becoming Mirage in the show.

[Shockwave]

Then there's Target: 2006 where Gavly himself clarifies it: "No Jazz. Not LIKE Megatron. I AM Megatron!"

[Dominic]

Shockwave is right. "Target: 2006" settles it.

I am doing it by the numbers, and it is going to end in at least 1 tie for 2nd and probably another for 5th. If I break those ties by a coin-toss, it's not exactly fair, but if I do it "by the numbers" then the one with the fewest votes gets it because its numbers are higher in average, which doesn't feel right to me.

Sorry, misunderstood you.

Well, I would say "whatever screws the Beast Wars characters".

But, nobody is going to actually do that....

I would say give it to the character that appears more on lists than higher on lists if that is a differentiating factor. Yes, people might really like the character that is higher on their list. But, a character showing up on more lists, (regardless of order), shows how many people like that character to begin with.


Dom
-or, just toss a coin.

[Onslaught Six]

If there's a dispute, put it to a vote. For example, if Blackarachnia and Barricade have the same "amount" of votes, I would certainly pick Barricade over her. But switch her out for, say, Prowl, and I might have a different opinion.

Also, our own decision on Galvatron being Megatron or not is almost moot as it really depends on what Hasbro says.

I would go back and view Megatron's winning video, and see if Galvatron--any Galvatron--turns up in it.

[JediTricks]

Ok, tiebreaker time! Let's try to break the 2 ties we currently have with a vote.

Put these 4 in order of preference:

• Prowl
• Rhinox
• Mirage
• Wheeljack

Remember, this must be an ORDERED list of preference between those 4 characters.

No guarantee this data will be used or even help, but I'll give it a shot.

[JediTricks]

My vote:

1. Wheeljack
2. Mirage
3. Rhinox
4. Prowl

Here's how you make an ordered list if you are too lazy (like me) to just write the numbers in the front of your entries (type your entries after the asterisk brackets):

Code: Select all

[list=1]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/list]