story telling thoughts

A general discussion forum, plus hauls and silly games.
Post Reply
User avatar
Dominic
Supreme-Class
Posts: 9331
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:55 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

story telling thoughts

Post by Dominic »

Picked up from an earlier discussion:
I see little point in reading about fiction characters doing fiction things that have no bearing on anything. If a writer can show insight about something else while writing about big robots, then I am more interested.
Sparky Prime wrote:
This is just honestly something I cannot understand about you Dom. I mean you're basically saying here that you don't like fiction in general because it's fictional. You're missing the whole point to reading a fictional piece if your only interest is insights into something else within the story.

It is not a question of disliking fiction because it is fictional.

it is a question of economizing my reading effort. If a novel runs about 300 pages, then it will take even a fast reader time to finish. (I am not a fast reader.) It is a question of wanting more for the investment than simply a recounting of fictional characters doing something that really does not matter. Even if an event sticks in the context of the story, it still has only so much value.

It is not unreasonable to want a writer, who theoretically traffics in ideas and concepts, to demonstrate some kind of insight about...well....something. Fiction can be a good way to depict a scenario or a question. Of course, for the depiction to be worthwhile, it should have some credibility. In this sense, believable characters are needed. (Solutions offered by cartoon scientists with degrees in knowing everything rarely offer anything beyond a convenient resolution to the story. Of course, how the solution is used, and what is said about it, can be interesting.)

Writing and reading fiction can be an example of intellectual "play". Many of the play behaviors exhibited by animals build useful survival behaviors to be used later in life. The same principle applies in fiction. Reading/writing a scenario/question can lead to understanding that is applicable elsewhere. In some cases, seeing such a story can be useful just by virtue of showing that a situation is not unprecedented. (The more organizations I have worked for, the more my appreciation of "Dilbert" grows. In fact, I once found myself wishing an office I worked in made that much sense.)

Stories can also be used to illustrate the cases for or against "big" ideas. But, there is huge difference between illstrating an idea and giving directives. For example, in AHM, McCarthy offers few actual solutions to the problem of an organization having little direction or purpose beyond "well, they should have one". Having been through business school, (I changed my direction a few times), I can say that those courses offer little in the way of easy answers. But, McCarthy shows insight into the problem, if not the solution.

Another example of a story illustrating a principle is "Ender's Game". Card does a fantastic job of showing the utility of empathy and ruthlessness. I do not know what studies there were on the subject when he wrote "Ender's Game" 25+ years ago. But, I have seen articles consistent with the idea recently. (Of course, The same thing was presented in "The Art of War" thousands of years ago.)

A good way to look at it might be that fiction is good way to present and apply ideas in a way that has no real consequence. Think of it as a sort of intellectual testing range.

Polemics and preaching are different things. As good as Ralph Peters' nonfiction is, his novels read like chunks of (low-pitched) action stories mixed in with actual idea. (He has reasons for doing this. Regardless of how much I agree with his ideas or reasons, I find his methods flawed.)

I read/watch plenty that does not meet this standard. "Family Guy" is mostly farts and doody jokes. (And, I love me some farts and doody.) I was reading "Dark Avengers" before I got the idea of what Bendis was doing. I read other comics just to see how writers will handle certain directives, or even to try to figure out what market a publisher is aiming for.


Dom
-calling you out sparky.
User avatar
Sparky Prime
Supreme-Class
Posts: 5327
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:It is not a question of disliking fiction because it is fictional.

it is a question of economizing my reading effort. If a novel runs about 300 pages, then it will take even a fast reader time to finish. (I am not a fast reader.) It is a question of wanting more for the investment than simply a recounting of fictional characters doing something that really does not matter. Even if an event sticks in the context of the story, it still has only so much value.
I can't imagine "economizing" my reading effort by requiring a story to have some sort of additional insights. How do you even know a piece will have that before you've read it? Reviews and synopsis only go so far. And I'd very much have to disagree that a piece only has so much value. A piece is going to have different values to different people according to how much they relate or are pulled into that story or, quite simply, how much they enjoyed the story itself. I can understand having some sort of way to narrow down a book list, but you're methods just don't make any sense to me. Personally, I read books based on whether or not the story sounds like something I might enjoy. And again, I have to say if you find no investment based on what the fictional characters do, then you're missing the point of reading the piece. You're missing the simple enjoyment of the story itself by focusing only on what is an extra component.
User avatar
Dominic
Supreme-Class
Posts: 9331
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:55 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by Dominic »

The economizing is a minor enough things. Consider how many books (to use one medium) are published just for one genre.

There is a certain amount of trial and error with selecting a book/comic/movie/whatever, (ficiton or non-fiction). But, over time, it gets easier to recognize writers, or even reviewers. To use toys as an example, I can read one of DVD's reviews and work out a conversion from what he is saying into what I would rate a toy.

The more options there are, the more sense it makes to be selective. Do I always select, or even aim, high? No. (I regularly read "Action Comics" for example. I sat through that god awful "Archie" wedding arc..) But, I try to recognize and favor writing.

People can set priority for different things in a story, such as character, idea, plot, etc. In some cases, a writer may do well enough on something I look at as secondary, and I may pick up their title. For example, Bendis's dialogue is strong enough that I started reading "Dark Avengers" before I saw where he was going with it. I can respect the technical skill it takes to "write like people talk" without being unreadable. (This is much trickier than it sounds.) Similarly, I can recognize the energy it takes for guys like Dixon and Abnett to grind out as much as they do. (For sheer volume, both have low rates of utter failure.)


But, in the end, it just makes sense to read stories that show some insight about something.

Dom
User avatar
Sparky Prime
Supreme-Class
Posts: 5327
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:But, in the end, it just makes sense to read stories that show some insight about something.
To a certain extent perhaps, but it doesn't make sense to me to read something purely for the insights it might have. As I've said, it makes sense to read a piece to enjoy it. The insights are just extra as far as I'm concerned.
User avatar
BWprowl
Supreme-Class
Posts: 4145
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:15 pm
Location: Shelfwarming, because of Shellforming
Contact:

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by BWprowl »

I tend to fall somewhere in between you guys, though I skew towards Dom's view. In my case, while I'll check pretty much anything out based mostly on how interesting the story or character concepts sound, I'll become much more engaged if I notice interesting ideas at the core of the story. This isn't to say that I dismiss anything that isn't purely idea-based, my absolute favorite manga is Negima for crying out loud, and that's pretty much just a shonen action series with all the elements that I find 'fun' turned up to eleven (plus I like the way it subverts and plays with a lot of manga tropes). But examples like that aside, I derive a lot of enjoyment from series that result in interesting discussion or reflection on the themes contained within. This brings me to the point that I often want to chime in with Dom about that an 'idea' need not be a 'moral'.

I'll use the recent anime series Candy Boy as an example, since this one put me through the ringer in terms of trying to decide just what the hell I *thought* of it. The concept for the series alone is designed to turn some heads, as it focuses on a pair of high-school age twin sisters whose familial love crosses deeply into the romantic, and the ramifications it has on their school and social interactions, as well as the directions they choose to take in life. The series uses the ups and downs they go through to communicate the ideas of growing up, stepping outside your comfort zone, and attaining independence in early adulthood. Where I took issue with the series' ideas was that it seems to posit that it's okay to remain static in your growth, and that using another person as a crutch or a safety net for your emotional development is perfectly fine as long as it seems to be what they want too. I grappled with this for days after watching the series. I disagreed so heavily with the themes, but they had been expertly communicated by the creators, and the base allegory was a solid one. The fact that the art, music and character designs, as well as several of the characters themselves, were very appealing also complicated my opinion. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that I had *enjoyed* the series, even though I hadn't necessarily *agreed* with it. And a large part of that enjoyment came from my processing of and decisions regarding the ideas.

So anyway, like I said, I kinda go both ways on this one. I like stuff like Gunsmith Cats and the second season of Beast Wars, which are mostly just awesomely well-crafted plots with entertaining characters that don't really stop to bother with an idea, and I also like stuff like Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex and All Hail Megatron, where my favorite parts are the characters just standing around talking about *really interesting* ideas.

And then there's stuff like Gurren Lagann and FLCL, which mash together the best of both worlds perfectly. Those are my favorites.
Image
User avatar
Onslaught Six
Supreme-Class
Posts: 7023
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:49 am
Location: In front of my computer.
Contact:

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by Onslaught Six »

My problem is that I'd love to be engaged in worlds with deep ideas and concepts but most of the time I'm just too damned apathetic. I spend more time these days trying to create than I do anything else anyway. Such is the life of an artist working on an album.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
Image
User avatar
andersonh1
Moderator
Posts: 6472
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:22 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by andersonh1 »

I just want to enjoy what I'm reading. Sometimes the characters provide that enjoyment, and sometimes the ideas do. Sometimes it's a combination of both. A work of fiction doesn't have to really engage my intellect to be worth my time to read. On the other hand, if it goes the opposite direction of insulting to my intelligence then I might certainly choose not to read it.

I thought All Hail Megatron was a great example of a Transformers series that actually gave me both ideas to chew on as well as developing some characters I've enjoyed reading about/watching for a long time.

I still come down on the side of having to care about the characters more than I do getting engaged by the ideas behind the story though. I was thinking about that last night while (to pick a television rather than reading example) watching season four of Battlestar Galactica. I have to admit that I'm struggling to get through to the end of the series because all the characters are dark, twisted, nasty pieces of work, and I really don't care what happens to them at this point. If the Cylons wipe them out, that's fine. If they never reach Earth, that's fine too. There's no one to like or sympathize with on that show any more. I'm just mildly curious about how the series will end, and having stuck with it this far, I'll see how it ends.
User avatar
Shockwave
Supreme-Class
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by Shockwave »

I think I've posted my thoughts on this quite extensively in the comics thread, so you all are probably already pretty clear where I stand on this one. But since this is an entire thread about this, what the heck? After the discussions in the comics thread, I understand, Dom, your point of view and approach to your fiction even though I don't necessarily agree with it. I side more with Sparky on this one, I read for entertainment first and foremost. I'm not always looking to engage my intellect. In fact, I often find it relaxing to "turn the brain off" sometimes. It's one of the main reasons I love Family Guy. It's funny, and doesn't require thought (most of the time). The same is true of literature, be it comic or book. Now, that's not to say that I don't have times where I actually do read to engage my brain, it's just not a requirement for me to enjoy it. Nor is it a priority when I go looking for something to read. For me, fiction is more character driven. I enjoy a story more if the characters are believeable and the more realistic they are, the more believable they are.
User avatar
Gomess
Supreme-Class
Posts: 2767
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:10 am
Location: Eng-er-land

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by Gomess »

I know I've enjoyed a story when I draw a picture of one of the characters. That, to me, is the ultimate proof of media enjoyment, 'cos it's Uses and Gratifications 2 THA MAXX.
COME TO TFVIEWS oh you already did
User avatar
Dominic
Supreme-Class
Posts: 9331
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:55 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: story telling thoughts

Post by Dominic »

My "turn off and tune out" activity is listening to pop songs and inserting *filthy* lyrics over the real ones. I love some of Rihanna's earlier songs for that. ("This time please, I don't want a new disease!" And, now, I will not post more. it is better than way.)

My problem with stories that are lacking ideas is that if I just want events and characters, i could read a newspaper or celebrity/political gossip.
Sometimes it's a combination of both. A work of fiction doesn't have to really engage my intellect to be worth my time to read. On the other hand, if it goes the opposite direction of insulting to my intelligence then I might certainly choose not to read it.
Sometimes, the insulting stories are interesting though. "Countdown" and "Final Crisis" were terribly insulting. But, dammit if it was not worth reading them to see "how" they would insult the reader next.

Dom
Post Reply