Star Trek

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Shockwave
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Shockwave »

I've seen it and I really enjoyed it. There were really only two things that bugged me:
Spoiler
At one point, Picard asks if it's possible to build a full flesh and blood android and to quote Red Letter Media's review "Isn't that just a person"? the other is that all androids are built in matching sets of two... for reasons. I don't trust that the writers are ever going to explain the reason for this, but we'll see.
For the most part, I enjoyed and I'm interested to see where they go with it.

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andersonh1
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Re: Star Trek

Post by andersonh1 »

Shockwave wrote:I've seen it and I really enjoyed it. There were really only two things that bugged me:
Spoiler
At one point, Picard asks if it's possible to build a full flesh and blood android and to quote Red Letter Media's review "Isn't that just a person"? the other is that all androids are built in matching sets of two... for reasons. I don't trust that the writers are ever going to explain the reason for this, but we'll see.
For the most part, I enjoyed and I'm interested to see where they go with it.
Sounds like they're carrying on not only with a way to bring Data into the show and make him important, even after the character's death, but also exploring some of the themes Voyager was exploring in the later seasons with the holographic Doctor and artificial life forms. I can see why they have talked to Robert Picardo about the possibility of appearing in season 2.

How are the de-aging effects on Data? Does he look pretty much like he did in Nemesis?

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Shockwave
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Shockwave »

There's definitely an uncanny valley happening there. He actually looks downright creepy. But I don't really know what else they could do.

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Sparky Prime
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

Shockwave wrote:I've seen it and I really enjoyed it. There were really only two things that bugged me:
Spoiler
At one point, Picard asks if it's possible to build a full flesh and blood android and to quote Red Letter Media's review "Isn't that just a person"? the other is that all androids are built in matching sets of two... for reasons. I don't trust that the writers are ever going to explain the reason for this, but we'll see.
For the most part, I enjoyed and I'm interested to see where they go with it.
Spoiler
Yeah, I really don't understand what makes Dahj/Soji androids if they're flesh and blood. How did they even make them flesh and blood? You'd kinda need DNA for that and "cloning" one of Data's positronic neurons certainly wouldn't explain that. Plus, given we see Dahj jump up an entire flight of stairs, which flesh and blood humans can't do so... how does that work? Are they more like cyborgs, mixing organics and cybernetics? This just raises so many questions, that like you, I don't trust that the writers are going to explain it, or if they do, I doubt they will do it competently.

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andersonh1
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Re: Star Trek

Post by andersonh1 »

So about ten minutes before I have to leave for work, I discover the first episode is available to stream for free. I'll be watching this evening.

https://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-pic ... membrance/

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Shockwave
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Shockwave »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Shockwave wrote:I've seen it and I really enjoyed it. There were really only two things that bugged me:
Spoiler
At one point, Picard asks if it's possible to build a full flesh and blood android and to quote Red Letter Media's review "Isn't that just a person"? the other is that all androids are built in matching sets of two... for reasons. I don't trust that the writers are ever going to explain the reason for this, but we'll see.
For the most part, I enjoyed and I'm interested to see where they go with it.
Spoiler
Yeah, I really don't understand what makes Dahj/Soji androids if they're flesh and blood. How did they even make them flesh and blood? You'd kinda need DNA for that and "cloning" one of Data's positronic neurons certainly wouldn't explain that. Plus, given we see Dahj jump up an entire flight of stairs, which flesh and blood humans can't do so... how does that work? Are they more like cyborgs, mixing organics and cybernetics? This just raises so many questions, that like you, I don't trust that the writers are going to explain it, or if they do, I doubt they will do it competently.
Spoiler
I'm calling it now: They're Borg. They're going to wind up being a mix of technology for Soong Type Androids, Borg technology and Picard's DNA. I'll be interested to see if holograhic lifeforms factor into this, but I doubt they will. And yeah, leaping that far was ridiculous. I suppose it's supposed to show the super strength that androids supposedly have, but Data was never seen doing that so it's stupid. They're androids, not Kyptonians. Ugh. The sad part is, this is like the Star Wars prequels. I really enjoyed this at the time, but once I start actually thinking about what I've watched, I start to see all of the bad decisions and stupid writing that have gone into it.

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Sparky Prime
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

andersonh1 wrote:So about ten minutes before I have to leave for work, I discover the first episode is available to stream for free. I'll be watching this evening.

https://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-pic ... membrance/
The first episode is also on Amazon Prime for free in the US as well. I'm watching it now.

Edit: It has some problems as I pointed out when I posted the plot synopsis, but overall I'd have to say I enjoyed it. It's way better than the episodes of Discovery I've seen at least.
Shockwave wrote:
Spoiler
I'm calling it now: They're Borg. They're going to wind up being a mix of technology for Soong Type Androids, Borg technology and Picard's DNA. I'll be interested to see if holograhic lifeforms factor into this, but I doubt they will. And yeah, leaping that far was ridiculous. I suppose it's supposed to show the super strength that androids supposedly have, but Data was never seen doing that so it's stupid. They're androids, not Kyptonians. Ugh. The sad part is, this is like the Star Wars prequels. I really enjoyed this at the time, but once I start actually thinking about what I've watched, I start to see all of the bad decisions and stupid writing that have gone into it.
Spoiler
I wouldn't be surprised if Borg technology was involved. It's the only technology I can think of they might have access to that can blend organics and cybernetics like they seem to be suggesting. I think they will address holograms actually. Supposedly the ship Picard eventually ends up on is going to have a new EMH that is programmed to learn but not become "too self aware". And Robert Picardo has said he is in talks to appear in season 2, reprising his role as the EMH mk1.

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andersonh1
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Re: Star Trek

Post by andersonh1 »

I really enjoyed the episode. I'll throw out some thoughts and some questions, because I'd agree that not everything seems plausible or consistent, but it's nothing that can't be papered over somehow.

Spoiler
- I loved the opening scene with Data and PIcard playing poker in Ten Forward, and all the indications that it's a dream (Data wearing the wrong uniform, an older Picard, the five Queens). The banter was just classic, particularly with Data. ("Now I"m unsure which deception to employ.")
- I'm assuming the attack on Mars is meant to be Trek's equivalent to the 9/11 attacks.
- I really like the two Romulans who live with Picard and help him out, almost like caretakers. There's a very familial relationship with them, and it's nice to see some Romulans for once who are just normal, caring people. So often all we've seen are the government, military or secret police, all hostile and paranoid representatives of that race. And I'm glad they've gone back to Romulans without brow ridges. I've always preferred that look.
- This series does to the expanded universe what the modern Doctor Who series or Star Wars did when those franchises got new entries, and ignores or contradicts a lot of what appears in print. I think Data's upload into B4 essentially allowed him to "survive" his death in the comics and possibly the books (though I haven't read many of those), but here it's revealed that the upload did not work because B4's neural network could not handle the information, and B4 is seen disassembled in a drawer at the Daystrom Institute.
- On that note, have we ever actually seen the Daystrom Institute before? I don't think so. It's been referenced often, but never seen as far as I can remember, so it's nice to finally visit it.
- I enjoyed the images from the TNG series and movies before Picard's interview. And I see journalists are just as prone to vanity and ambush journalism in the future as they are today. Some things never change.
- Poor Picard is too old to run up the steps! But I like "old man PIcard", still holding on to his beliefs and principles, and still willing to take a stand and go into action to help others. Patrick Stewart is very good here, as is Brent Spiner for the few scenes he's in, effortlessly recreating Data.
- The idea of "flesh and blood synthetics" is said, in universe, to be impossible, and yet someone's managed to build two of them. I like the implication that it's Bruce Maddox, seen back in "The Measure of a Man", one of the more well-known TNG episodes. Yes, there are problems with this concept, but at the same time it's not all the different from some of the more out-there technobabble ideas we saw in TNG or Voyager to solve problems, and it does continue the concept of such breakthroughs in technology being nigh-impossible to replicate. It's the same idea TNG used with Data, that Dr. Soong made discoveries that no one had been able to duplicate, and now Maddox has built off that work (just as he wanted to) to make yet another advance that no one else can duplicate.
- Romulan acid spit? We don't know that's what it was. This was a hit squad taking on an android, so it's possible that they prepared with a few weapons other than firearms. Or it could just be a "new powers as the plot demands" writing choice, which I have a problem with since it seems like we'd have heard of such an ability before. Then again, the original series writers on several occasions came up with some hitherto unknown biological or mental ability for Spock to write themselves out of a fix (Spock having an inner eyelid to avoid being blinded or Spock being able to offer mental directions to influence someone's behavior at a distance), and Vulcans and Romulans are related, so this is not without precedent.
- I loved all the items in Picard's vault.
- I really enjoyed the emphasis on Picard and Data's friendship, and just how clear it is that Picard misses his friend.
- Nemesis is no longer the final entry in the prime Trek timeline.


I really enjoyed the episode. I hope the series maintains this level of quality.

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Sparky Prime
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

andersonh1 wrote:
Spoiler
- This series does to the expanded universe what the modern Doctor Who series or Star Wars did when those franchises got new entries, and ignores or contradicts a lot of what appears in print. I think Data's upload into B4 essentially allowed him to "survive" his death in the comics and possibly the books (though I haven't read many of those), but here it's revealed that the upload did not work because B4's neural network could not handle the information, and B4 is seen disassembled in a drawer at the Daystrom Institute.
Spoiler
It's kind of ironic, Kurtzman had a role in writing the story for the Countdown comic which established B4 essentially became a new body for Data. And now, with the Picard series, he's essentially saying the exact oppsoite, with B4 being unable to handle the download from Data. Which, honestly, I prefer. B4 was established to be a prototype (not a copy as Dr. Jurati says!) to Data (and Lore) in Nemesis, and clearly wasn't as advanced as his brothers. It never really made sense to me that B4 could essentially become a new Data, at least, not with out some major upgrades.


Spoiler
- On that note, have we ever actually seen the Daystrom Institute before? I don't think so. It's been referenced often, but never seen as far as I can remember, so it's nice to finally visit it.
Spoiler
Nope, this is the first time we've actually seen it. I have to say, I enjoy that we're getting to see a bit more of the 24th century Earth with this show.

Spoiler
- Romulan acid spit? We don't know that's what it was. This was a hit squad taking on an android, so it's possible that they prepared with a few weapons other than firearms. Or it could just be a "new powers as the plot demands" writing choice, which I have a problem with since it seems like we'd have heard of such an ability before. Then again, the original series writers on several occasions came up with some hitherto unknown biological or mental ability for Spock to write themselves out of a fix (Spock having an inner eyelid to avoid being blinded or Spock being able to offer mental directions to influence someone's behavior at a distance), and Vulcans and Romulans are related, so this is not without precedent.
Spoiler
It looked to me like he bit down on something just before spitting the acid. Makes me think those Romulans had some sort of suicide capsule in a false tooth. Sort of a secret agent cliche. Although, looked like a rather painful way to die. I'm guessing it was designed to hide their identity as much as it was to kill them. But yeah, I've seen a lot of confusion over this scene, so they should have made it clearer what exactly was happening.

- Nemesis is no longer the final entry in the prime Trek timeline.
And it is about time. It's a crime it took them nearly 20 years to go back to this era of Trek, when fans have been telling them to stop with the reboots/prequels that they haven't done a very good job with.
I really enjoyed the episode. I hope the series maintains this level of quality.
I hope so as well... I really want to enjoy this show.

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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

Episode 2 - Maps and Legends

Spoiler
The episode begins with a flashback to April 5th, 14 years ago. The day the Synths revolt on Mars. The technicians that didn't get the day off for the holiday (First Contact day) working alongside a synth F8. It's apparent, these androids are not as advanced as Data, awkwardly conversing with the techs, and similar to Data (pre-emotion chip), has no understanding of humor (some of the dialog here also seems out of place for Star Trek, like the use of terms like "Hell yeah". It's a little too... 21st century). It's apparent somebody hacks F8, causing it to activate/corrupt the other synths, and deactivate/turn the planet defenses against Mars, before killing everyone in the room and shooting itself in the head.

Back in the present day... Picard, Laris and Zhaban review the security footage, which only shows Picard on the roof and the explosion. Dahj and the Romulan troops are somehow missing from all the footage. Zhaban suggests the Tal Shiar may have altered the footage, but Laris has another theory... She tells Picard of the Zhat Vash, a secret organization within the Romulan Tal Shiar (really!? a secret organization within essentially a secret police? I'm sorry, but that's just dumb writing, and these writers need to stop with the secret organization plotlines) which keeps a secret so "profound and terrible" that it can "break a person's mind" (whatever that means). Zhaban doesn't believe they actually exist, saying it's just a "boogyman" story told to new recruits and children. But Laris believes they do, and claims they are the reason we've never seen Romulans pursue artificial intelligence, cybernetics and androids (despite an episode of TNG contradicting this, not to mention, I've always gotten the impression their computers are on-par with Federation computers, which utilize a degree of AI, so I just can't buy that they don't pursue AI technology) because they have a deep loathing for artificial life... for some reason (and if they're going out of their way to get to Dahj and Soji... why didn't they ever go after Data?). Picard and Laris go to Dahj's apartment, trying to use a Romulan device (which is considered illegal in the Federation because it's considered... unreliable? Although Laris claims that just want they want them to think) to recreate the scene, but antileptons prevent them from seeing anything after the moment Romulan soldiers beamed in. Searching for the whereabouts of Soji, they look through Dahj's files and discover a communication from her, sent via subspace, meaning she's somewhere in space.

Picard calls in a friend from his days on the Stargazer to give him a medical check up to declare him fit for duty (what about Beverly? or Pulaski?). The doctor however tells Picard he found a problem with the porialtal lobe in his brain (Irumodic Syndrome?), but Picard is still able to persuade him to clear him, suggesting the mission may kill him first. The next day, Picard goes to Starfleet Headquarters to explain the situation and asks to be reinstated, but the admiral (rudely) denies the request following the interview he gave in the previous episode, pointing out 14 worlds had threatened to leave the Federation if they continued to help the Romulans. Returning home, Zhaban suggests he gets help from his former crew, like Rike, Worf, or Geordi (good to know he wasn't killed in the android revolt, given the comic book established Geordi was in charge of building the fleet at Mars). Picard says he can't, knowing they'd do it, but he doesn't want to put them in harms way. So instead Zhaban suggests he needs someone that hates him and has nothing to loose, to which Picard says he already put in the call... His former first officer from the evacuation efforts, Raffi Musiker. She agrees to help him after he tells her secret Romulan assassins are operating on Earth.

Meanwhile, we see the admiral that denied Picard's request to be reinstated contacts Commodore Oh (I'm pretty sure she's the first commodore we've seen in Star Trek since the original series) to apprise her of the situation. Oh, a Vulcan(?), it turns out is involved in the Romulan plot to hunt down the androids, along with a Lieutenant Rizzo, which is a surgically altered Romulan to look human. "Rizzo" turns out is also Narek's sister, so no surprise he's a bad guy as well.

Few other things of note... Apparently following the destruction of Romulus, there is now a Romulan Free State. It is unclear if it is a new government, replacing the Romulan Star Empire, or a separate government. At any rate, the Romulan Free State runs the operations of the captured Borg cube, which may explain why they seem to be more open about joint operations with the Federation. And Romulans with the forehead ridges are in the show. The Borg cube has gone 5843 days without an assimilation, which is about 16 years. It isn't clear how/why this cube was disconnected from the Collective, but I've been seeing speculation it may have been the result of Admiral Janeway's pathogen. Dr. Jurati has only been able to find any information on Dahj's identity going back about 3 years, suggesting the two "androids" are only about 3 years old. And while in the lobby of Starfleet Headquarters, Picard looks overhead to a holographic display of famous Starfleet ships the first being the Discovery version of the Enterprise, which then switches to the Enterprise D.

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