andersonh1 wrote:One of the reasons I decided to break out the old GL comics and re-read them is because of my discussion with Sparky Prime about the nature of the Guardians and how they’ve changed over time. And there’s a prime example in this issue and the next.
So where is said prime example? Considering the Guardians are under mind control or was an alien in disguise as a Guardian, I'm not seeing how this works as an example of the Guardians themselves...
Example #1: Hal gives up his ring to the Guardians, because "if I can't trust you, who can I trust?"
Example #2: the omniscient narrator informs the reader the Guardians are “wise, compassionate and benevolent"
Both prime examples of how the Guardians of today are vastly different than the Guardians as written in 1977. And how Hal is different as well. He out and out said in one of the more recent issues "Never trust the Guardians. Except for Ganthet." He obviously felt far differently about them back then.
andersonh1 wrote:Example #1: Hal gives up his ring to the Guardians, because "if I can't trust you, who can I trust?"
And? The majority of Green Lanterns still implicitly trusted the Guardians even through the Third Army story arc, up until the Guardians lured them to Oa for a "cure" to the Third Army soldiers. Only a select few had any reason to mistrust them, or knew they had turned on the Corps in the first place. And in this situation, Hal blindly trusts the Guardians only to have them turn on him. Granted, they are under mind control, but it goes to show the Guardians are not infallible.
Example #2: the omniscient narrator informs the reader the Guardians are “wise, compassionate and benevolent"
Because an omniscient narrator is actually part of the story? No, this is really not a clear example of the Guardians themselves or within the context of the story itself.
Both prime examples of how the Guardians of today are vastly different than the Guardians as written in 1977. And how Hal is different as well. He out and out said in one of the more recent issues "Never trust the Guardians. Except for Ganthet." He obviously felt far differently about them back then.
Heaven forbid things change somewhat over about 3 decades. I really don't see that these are examples of how "vastly different" the Guardians are in today's stories at all. Even your own example goes to show how the Guardians can't always be implicitly trusted.
Sparky Prime wrote:[Because an omniscient narrator is actually part of the story?
One thing I can tell you about these Bronze Age comics, the narration is just as much a part of telling the story as the characters are. It's a very different writing style. The narrator sets the scene, changes scenes, reveals things to the audience that the characters may not know, describes the action, lets us know what the characters are thinking, etc. It's integral to the issue, and therefore as important as any on-panel action by the characters.
It's worth reading a few issues to see what I mean, if you never have. I haven't read many comics from the 70s, so it's interesting to note the style.
Heaven forbid things change somewhat over about 3 decades. I really don't see that these are examples of how "vastly different" the Guardians are in today's stories at all. Even your own example goes to show how the Guardians can't always be implicitly trusted.
Ah, but in the other comic thread you said:
Sparky Prime wrote:Because I've never seen a story where a Guardian is shown to be emotional or anything but logical that their decisions are what's best for the larger picture that is the universe. Aside from the likes of Ganthet, Sayd and Appa Ali Apsa.
And I maintain they have changed over time. The Guardians of "Rise of the Third Army" are anything but "supremely wise, supremely benevolent mentors". In any case, I've got quite a few more issues to go, so as the Guardians turn up in them I'll note any examples I find.
andersonh1 wrote:One thing I can tell you about these Bronze Age comics, the narration is just as much a part of telling the story as the characters are. It's a very different writing style. The narrator sets the scene, changes scenes, reveals things to the audience that the characters may not know, describes the action, lets us know what the characters are thinking, etc. It's integral to the issue, and therefore as important as any on-panel action by the characters.
It's worth reading a few issues to see what I mean, if you never have. I haven't read many comics from the 70s, so it's interesting to note the style.
Oh, I've read stories that has a narrator setting the scene and giving the audience information unknown to the character in that story and so on. I do have a few comics from that era myself. But again, that narrator is not part of the context of the storyline itself, they are telling that story from outside of it. And I wouldn't say it's integral, given everything in a story *should* be able to be conveyed on-panel with out needing a narrator to fill it in for us. Like in Amazing Fantasy #15, Peter Parker plainly uses his new found spider-powers to leap out of the way of a car and starts to climb a wall. But we are also given a redundant exposition from a narrator telling us what is plainly shown on that panel. It's not necessary, which is probably why you don't see it that much, if at all, in modern comics.
Ah, but in the other comic thread you said:
Sparky Prime wrote:Because I've never seen a story where a Guardian is shown to be emotional or anything but logical that their decisions are what's best for the larger picture that is the universe. Aside from the likes of Ganthet, Sayd and Appa Ali Apsa.
I'm talking about the Guardians being portrayed as emotional in that quote, which again, I've never seen them portrayed as. Not whether or not Hal blindly trusts them anymore, which was the example you've pointed out here. And again, your example goes to show Hal shouldn't have blindly trusted them, even back then.
And I maintain they have changed over time. The Guardians of "Rise of the Third Army" are anything but "supremely wise, supremely benevolent mentors". In any case, I've got quite a few more issues to go, so as the Guardians turn up in them I'll note any examples I find.
And I maintain they really haven't changed like you seem to think they have. It's their methods that have changed more then they have.
We'll see. Oddly enough, the Guardians don't turn up again during the rest of this storyline. Weird. You'd think being mind controlled and infiltrated would cause them to be more personally involved in finding the villain of the piece.
Green Lantern/Green Arrow #98 – November 1977
Listen to the Mocking Bird - Written by Denny O’Neill, with art by Mike Grell
“Our family has been terrorists for six generations! You shame us! You’re no son of mine!” Pop Musto.
“Sorry, dad” – Junior Musto
Who knew terrorism was a multi-generational family business? And that kidnapping a Green Lantern and starting an intergalactic war will give you terrorist street cred? You can’t make this stuff up. In any case, the Mocker has followed Hal Jordan to Earth, and starts messing with Black Canary’s mind, as well as talking in a posh British accent, old bean. I think Denny O’Neill was smoking something when he wrote this issue. It’s just bizarre.
“Don’t ask questions, just blow up that limo!” – Green Arrow, the anarchist
Green Arrow figures out that the Mocker drains energy from sources around it, and that it came to Earth with Hal, so Hal might have to… gasp… leave Earth FOREVER! This explains why the Mocker honed in on the central power battery, but not HOW it managed to penetrate Oa’s defenses. But that doesn’t matter as Hal and Katma Tui head out into space with Green Arrow in tow. They go investigate the giant spaceship that Hal ran across a few issues ago and get freaked out by the dire warning on the spaceship’s door.
“It’s an intangible alien who lives off of energy and sounds like a middle upper class twit. Really, it will work!” Denny O’Neill to the GL editors of the time.
Green Lantern/Green Arrow #99 – December 1977
We are on the Edge of the Ultimate Ending - Written by Denny O’Neill, with art by Mike Grell
The mystery of the Mocker is solved, mainly thanks to the villain himself explaining it all. His fifty mile long ship is filled with illusions and mind games for anyone who happens to board the ship. He’s a bitter last survivor of his race who’s been traveling around the universe for tens of thousands of years showing everyone how meaningless life is. Green Arrow, the bleeding-heart, even feels sorry for him in the end after Hal ships him off to Oa to answer for his crimes.
So a four issue story arc concludes right before the big #100 (which I don’t have in my collection, sadly). Most of the questions raised by the plot are answered, though not all. The setting shifts from issue to issue, and the villain seemingly has whatever powers the plot demands (mind control, near perfect disguise ability, transgalactic teleportation, shapeshifting, etc). Not the most sophisticated writing, to say the least, but at least it feels like a lot happens. It’s not a modern decompressed storyline, where it takes six months to depict half an hour of action. The space opera elements just about work when taken on their own terms, but the attempt to shoehorn a family of terrorists who want to kidnap Carol Ferris from her mansion and who think starting an intergalactic war is a good thing is just absurd. That part of the story is supposed to be the down to Earth and topical plotline, one presumes. It could have been an attempt at comedy, because it’s certainly laughable.
I have to say, these books are bizarrely entertaining. I had been of the same mindset as Dom, and avoided comics before the mid-80s as nearly unreadable. And objectively, these comics are pretty bad in a lot of ways. Dialogue is florid and filled with dated slang, and you could never imagine anyone speaking the way these people do, particularly Oliver Queen. Characterization is pretty shallow. But the plots roll along at a rapid pace and the characters entertain as they go on their adventures, and the whole thing ends up being silly fun.
I have to say, these books are bizarrely entertaining. I had been of the same mindset as Dom, and avoided comics before the mid-80s as nearly unreadable. And objectively, these comics are pretty bad in a lot of ways. Dialogue is florid and filled with dated slang, and you could never imagine anyone speaking the way these people do, particularly Oliver Queen. Characterization is pretty shallow. But the plots roll along at a rapid pace and the characters entertain as they go on their adventures, and the whole thing ends up being silly fun.
That is exactly why I typically avoid Silver Age comics. And, when I do read them, I generally skim them (skipping over the unreadable dialogue).
One of the few good things to come out of the 90s (possibly the only good thing) was that the industry started to actively discourage and punish Silver Age style writing.
Florid language has a place. But, it should never have been the default. And, even allowing for florid style, there is no reason that a typical panel should have consisted of a clunky block of explicatory text, the character self-narrating using much the same style (if not the same words) *and* a crudely illustrated depiction of the stupid thing that had been clumsily described twice before.
It's interesting how much of the Silver Age is still bleeding into these Bronze Age comics, even in the late 70s. Obviously, despite the breaking up of comics into various "ages", there's a lot of transition. Even Byrne's Superman reboot covers seem very retro these days, and they're mid-80s.
Just to skim over a few of the following issues, 103-105, a few things jump out at me. Not necessarily the plots per se, which are an alien invasion, an unwitting mad scientist and Sonar rigging a beauty pagent so the girl from his country will win (seriously... what a patriotic super villain he is!). Oliver Queen has an eye for the ladies even in these issues, as Black Canary gives him grief for eyeing the beauty contestants. Some character traits go back a long way.
No, the thing that interested me the most (and it's hard to make a judgment call on this with so many gaps in my back issues) is the plot thread that pops up so often where Ollie wants Hal to do something, Hal won't do it because it's against the rules of the Green Lantern Corps, and Ollie starts ranting and telling him he isn't a man, and he needs to stop obeying the Guardians, etc, etc. And it's starting to get to Hal, because his internal monologue goes something like "Ollie's wrong. I have to just keep telling myself that." Did Hal's rebellious attitude begin here and stem from Green Arrow's influence on him? There's a similar scene in the first of the well-known GA/GL issues with O'Neill and Neal Adams.
I vaguely remember a Gerard Jones written story where Hal is thinking back on this time. There was some explanation about his lack of confidence, and he's thinking "normally I'd have just blown GA off and told him where he could stick it", or something like that. I'll have to see if I can find the scene in question and confirm that.
And Alex Saviuk is the penciller for these issues, even though Mike Grell is still on covers. I'm trying to remember what else I've read that's been drawn by Saviuk, because I know the name, but I'm drawing a blank. His art is decent, but not as good as Grell's.
Green Lantern/Green Arrow #111 – December 1978
Dark Things Cannot Stand the Light! - Written by Denny O’Neil, with art by Alex Saviuk
As you might guess by the title, this issue features Alan Scott, Green Lantern of Earth-2. This is pre-Crisis, so this is the straight, red shirt and purple cape-wearing version of the character. And as the cover reminds us, Alan is the “magical” Green Lantern, a fact which will be very important to the plot.
This issue details the origin of the Starheart. As far as I know, this is the first time the Green Lantern series details how the Guardians of the Universe decided that science should prevail over magic, and so they somehow removed (nearly) all magic from the universe and imprisoned/stored it in the heart of a star. However, some unknown enemy has found and stolen the Starheart. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and so reluctantly the Guardian that Hal and Ollie have gone to see reaches across the dimensional barrier to summon Alan Scott to help Hal Jordan track down the thief, since Alan’s magic-based in addition to Hal’s science-based ring will have all the bases covered. It’s comic book logic, run with it.
I keep wondering if Green Arrow should have gotten a Green Lantern ring. First he’s the one who convinces the Guardian to summon Alan Scott (and gets a compliment as the Guardian tells him his words are wise!), and then he gets some information out of them in the following exchange:
GA: Hey, you said you Guardians were charged with creating order. I’m curious. Who exactly did the charging?
Guardian: We ourselves – after one of our kind released evil upon the universe … in his attempt to learn our origin – a secret better left undiscovered!
With regard to some recent discussions, here's definite evidence that the Guardians have had the goal of keeping order for a long time. In that respect, they certainly match up with modern versions of the characters.
So Alan is summoned, he and Hal charge their rings off the main power battery, and then they head out into space with Green Arrow in tow. The find the thief rather easily, but he zaps them both, leaving them down for the count with Green Arrow helpless inside the ring construct that keeps him alive in outer space.
Green Lantern/Green Arrow #112 – January 1979
The Starheart Connection! - Written by Denny O’Neil, with art by Alex Saviuk
You gotta love the over the top hyperbole of these issues. The alien who stole the Starheart did so in order to cure the woman he’s in love with, the “most beautiful woman in the world!” Naturally we never get to see her face so we just have to take the narrator’s word for it. And I guess the origin of Alan Scott’s ring and power battery were never revealed during the Golden Age Green Lantern series, because he says here that he never had learned what the source of his power was when questioned by Green Arrow. As long time GL readers know, Alan’s ring was powered by the Starheart, which he learns from the Starheart itself. It is sentient and had sent a portion of itself into the universe which contained Earth-2. I think Alan Scott’s Green Lantern series ended in the late 40s, though I’m not sure of the exact date, so 30 years after the character’s book ended we finally get his origin, as well as the link with the main universe Green Lantern Corps.
Green Lantern/Green Arrow #114 – March 1979
The Crimes of the Crumbler! - Written by Denny O’Neil, with art by Alex Saviuk
The “relevant” plotlines of the early Green Lantern/Green Arrow series continue to seep into later issues, at least as a pretext to kick off the plot even if the plot goes in other directions. For the last few issues Hal Jordan has been working as a trucker, hauling freight around the country. In this issue, he’s hauling a highly volatile fuel down into Mexico for a construction project. Oliver Queen tears into him and starts preaching about how dangerous the fuel is, but for once Hal tells him that his preachiness is getting on his nerves and that he needs to stuff it.
So Hal heads to the construction site, braving bad roads and high winds, when a mishap causes his truck to run off the road. He survives and saves the truck using his ring (why he didn’t use it to transport it all in the first place I don’t know), but he’s knocked unconscious as he charges his ring by… The Crumbler! A monstrous villain with a… glove that… makes things go away. Yeah.
Naturally Green Arrow hears about the accident, so he and Black Canary head to the hospital to check up on Hal, who has a bad concussion. (Why didn’t his ring protect him? Who knows?). The Crumbler is there, and GA gives chase, only for the villain to… kill GA! No, actually, he just makes part of the roof under GA’s feet disintegrate, and then he runs off. To be fair, he does express some reluctance to kill earlier in the issue, showing that O’Neil is trying to find possible plot holes and explain them away, but it’s more fun to mock The Crumbler than to take him seriously. One wonders what a Geoff Johns reinvention of this guy would have looked like. All of Hal Jordan’s other enemies that were brought back got far nastier and more vile (Black Hand as a necrophile?!?), so one assumes the Crumbler would too, assuming anyone could take him seriously for long enough.
One other observation about these old issues: Hal Jordan charges his ring and recites his oath in EVERY SINGLE ISSUE. Yeah, the charge only lasts 24 hours at a time so it’s a prudent precaution to take, but I’m not sure it’s necessary to include the recharging scene in every last narrative.
So, the Crumbler is the owner of the chateau that’s under construction, and he’s sabotaging his own project to get the insurance money because he’s deep in debt? And Ollie’s already met him twice? And he gives himself away by mentioning the hospital, which he shouldn’t have known about? I’m shocked by these plot twists. Shocked, I say.
This really is pretty small scale crime for a Green Lantern to be involved with, not to mention a pretty tired old plotline. I guess it’s more of a threat for Green Arrow, but even he doesn’t find it too difficult to deal with the Crumbler, a villain up there with Marvel’s Stilt Man for goofiness. I have to think that some more tension and drama could have been wrung out of a villain who can destroy things by disintegration. But when he pulls that hanky over his face and starts ranting, you know the jig is up.
There’s a weird mix of sexism and feminism in these books when it comes to Black Canary. Oliver Queen constantly calls her “pretty bird” or says things that would be considered shallow or patronizing today. And yet she’s constantly shown to be competent and capable, and she loves taking down the bad guys who underestimate her because she’s a woman. I guess it’s another case of the shallow characterization of the era, and an attempt to break free of Silver Age trappings while not quite getting there. It’s a step in the right direction I suppose.
anderson wrote:So, the Crumbler is the owner of the chateau that’s under construction, and he’s sabotaging his own project to get the insurance money because he’s deep in debt? And Ollie’s already met him twice? And he gives himself away by mentioning the hospital, which he shouldn’t have known about? I’m shocked by these plot twists. Shocked, I say.
Oh man, I love it when comics do stuff like this. If Crumbles is so badly in debt, where did he even get the capital to make his amazing destructo-glove? All that to get some insurance money? I bet there are demolition and construction companies that would pay some serious dosh for an invention like his, why doesn't he just patent the technology, sell it to them, and retire comfortably?
Hell, even if he, for some reason, absolutely HAD to turn to crime to get the money he so badly needed, why didn't he just, I dunno, crumble into the back of a bank at night, crumble through a safe, and make off with a bunch of cash? Why the convoluted, circuitous start project->destroy project->collect insurance plot? It's just so...so hilariously needlessly complicated.
I know it's an 'old' comic book and we aren't supposed to question these sorts of things, but dammit, it just makes no sense to me!
It's interesting how much of the Silver Age is still bleeding into these Bronze Age comics, even in the late 70s. Obviously, despite the breaking up of comics into various "ages", there's a lot of transition. Even Byrne's Superman reboot covers seem very retro these days, and they're mid-80s.
The lines between "Ages" are rarely clear.
The Silver Age is assumed to have started in the 50s because "Flash" was the first successful relaunch and rebranding of a Golden Age character. But, the line is much blurrier when it comes to a character like Batman. Is it Silver Age Batman that was silly and goofy? Or, is the proper Silver Age Batman the Adams/O'Neil iteration of the character which did not show up until nearly 15 years after the Silver Age Flash, and even longer before "Crisis on Infinite Earths", which was arguably the end of the Silver Age.
Similarly, the first legitimate appearance of post-CoIE Superman is in the first issue of Byrne's "The Man of Steel"......at least a year after "Crisis on Infinite Earths" had ended and after a significant number of post-CoIE appearances by the Silver Age Superman.
Dom
-and that does not even factor editorial turn over.....
