Comics are Awesome III

[andersonh1]

I just came across an informative article on comicbook.com pointing out several Easter Eggs and explaining a bit of the background to some of the characters from the first issue of Multiversity. Since I noticed a few mentioned they didn't know or weren't all that familiar with Captain Carrot, thought some of you might like to read it.

Thanks for posting that. I caught some of the references that Morrison put in, but not all. It's an extra layer of fun in a book like this to figure out what all the little nods to the past and other companies are.

[Dominic]

I have been trying to match characters to the high-lighted earths on the cover.

The more I look at that map, the less sense it makes.

How are Earths 13 and 50 still there? The changes from "Flashpoint" were justified by Earths 0, 13 and 50 collapsing together. The real reason is that the map was likely drawn up after "Final Crisis" (which may or may not have happened post-"Flashpoint"), and it has not been edited. Not that Earth 15 appears as a shadow (reflecting its destruction in "Countdown".) How is limbo distinct from Earth 51? (I was given to understand that they were the same.) The last is likely to be answered in "Multiversity", as it relates to stuff that Morrison wrote. The other stuff might never be answered.

It amazes me when folks into comics haven't heard of Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew - that was a common find in the discount bins at my local comic shops as a kid so much that I expect any kid would know it, but I stood in the comic shop last week for 2 hours and heard multiple people around my age not knowing of Captain Carrot after seeing him on the Multiversity cover.

Keep in mind why books end up in discount bins. They did not sell. They did not make an impression.

I learned very quickly that time spent digging through those bins was largely wasted. I might come up with piles of comics. But, how many of those comics would be be good or in good condition? I saw plenty of ads for "Captain Carrot" and "Peter Porker" in comics. I saw the books in quarter bins. But, I never bothered with them.

It is not hard to figure that some fans never bothered with quarter bins at all, or gave up more quickly than you or I did. I recall Marvel's "Star Comics" line because I was just young enough when they came out. But, I also (even 30+ years ago) knew they were not very good. ("Planet Terry" and "Top Dog" were the first two books that I dropped. I barely even count them as books I read.)

[BWprowl]

I have been trying to match characters to the high-lighted earths on the cover.

Of course you have.

The more I look at that map, the less sense it makes.

How are Earths 13 and 50 still there? The changes from "Flashpoint" were justified by Earths 0, 13 and 50 collapsing together. The real reason is that the map was likely drawn up after "Final Crisis" (which may or may not have happened post-"Flashpoint"), and it has not been edited. Not that Earth 15 appears as a shadow (reflecting its destruction in "Countdown".) How is limbo distinct from Earth 51? (I was given to understand that they were the same.) The last is likely to be answered in "Multiversity", as it relates to stuff that Morrison wrote. The other stuff might never be answered.

Is the Multiverse as it exists now the same as it did pre-New-ish-52? I was under the impression that when DC Reset Fucking Everything as part of that, the status of the Multiverse, its myriad Earths, and what each one was was included in that (hence Earth 2 becoming its own whole new thing and getting a title to follow that). Does anything we knew about the Multiverse before the big reset even matter anymore? This is, of course, compounded by the question of whether Morrison is working from pre- or post-reset continuity, what with when 'Multiversity' was originally written, and all.

The best way to look at it, in my opinion, is from what's purely relevant to the comic itself. The Earths that matter to the story, and what they are in the story, will be listed and defined as such in-story. Whether that matches up with anything else other writers at DC have done with them up til now, who cares?

Keep in mind why books end up in discount bins. They did not sell. They did not make an impression.

I learned very quickly that time spent digging through those bins was largely wasted. I might come up with piles of comics. But, how many of those comics would be be good or in good condition? I saw plenty of ads for "Captain Carrot" and "Peter Porker" in comics. I saw the books in quarter bins. But, I never bothered with them.

It is not hard to figure that some fans never bothered with quarter bins at all, or gave up more quickly than you or I did. I recall Marvel's "Star Comics" line because I was just young enough when they came out. But, I also (even 30+ years ago) knew they were not very good. ("Planet Terry" and "Top Dog" were the first two books that I dropped. I barely even count them as books I read.)

This misses the point, though, that even if people didn't buy the books, even if they were unpopular and wound up in discount bins, people were still *aware* of them. You may have disliked and dropped Planet Terry and Top Dog, but then you would still recognize whatever the hell those are if they popped up or were mentioned in another comic. As such, even though DC's never really been able to get Captain Carrot to take off, it's still surprising that people, long-time comic readers, are unfamiliar with him simply because you'd think they'd have seen him before on account of all those other times DC tried to get him to take off. I've been reading comics for less than ten years, and I knew who he was!

[Dominic]

Is the Multiverse as it exists now the same as it did pre-New-ish-52?

It was not supposed to be, hence Earth 2. Similarly, Earth 3 appears red on the map, presumably reflecting its destruction in "Forever Evil".

(Remembe, Earths 50 and 13 were mixed with Earth 0 in "Flashpoint".)

But, the map shows Earths 50 and 13 as still existing, and it shows Earth 15 as a shadow.

Here is another question, why is Earth 5 (Fawcett Earth) drawn so far from the Rock of Eternity? I would think it would make sense to draw the two closer together.

I am assuming that Morrison is ignoring "Flashpoint". And, with the upcomign "Crisis", maybe DC is too.

As such, even though DC's never really been able to get Captain Carrot to take off, it's still surprising that people, long-time comic readers, are unfamiliar with him simply because you'd think they'd have seen him before on account of all those other times DC tried to get him to take off.

The Zoo Crew showed up in a one-shot that tied in with "Countdown" back in '07/'08. Did anybody care about that one-shot? Before that, what books were the characters in? If somebody skipped a minor one-shot, and never bothered with quarter bin books or never read DC comics from far enough back (that would have had ads), they would not have heard of Captain Carrot.

[BWprowl]

(Remembe, Earths 50 and 13 were mixed with Earth 0 in "Flashpoint".)

But, the map shows Earths 50 and 13 as still existing, and it shows Earth 15 as a shadow.

Yeah, that happened to the *old* Earths 50 and 13. But per 'New 52', EVERYTHING got reset, started over, began anew, etc. This, presumably, includes the whole universe and Multiverse, so all the Earths, including 50 and 13, were 'filled in' and started again from scratch, just like the rest of DC.

Here is another question, why is Earth 5 (Fawcett Earth) drawn so far from the Rock of Eternity? I would think it would make sense to draw the two closer together.

Is the Rock of Eternity in multiversal space or something now? I had always thought it was Earth-based, and thus any alternate Earth that had its own Shazam/Captain Marvel, would thus have its own Rock as well.

Alternatively: It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit.

The Zoo Crew showed up in a one-shot that tied in with "Countdown" back in '07/'08. Did anybody care about that one-shot? Before that, what books were the characters in? If somebody skipped a minor one-shot, and never bothered with quarter bin books or never read DC comics from far enough back (that would have had ads), they would not have heard of Captain Carrot.

The point JT was making was that there were apparently a lot of comic fans who HAD read from that far back who had still somehow never heard of Captain Carrot, hence his surprise and confusion.

(I think the Zoo Crew had a miniseries sometime before the one-shot you mentioned too, was called "The Final Ark" or something.)

And this still dodges my main, self-referential point: I barely even started reading comics back in '06 or so, and I didn't start reading DC until sometime after that even, and despite that I'm still familiar with CC and the ZC. If I could pull that, it should follow that the characters shouldn't be unknown as they seemingly are, which is what JT was surprised at.

[Sparky Prime]

How are Earths 13 and 50 still there? The changes from "Flashpoint" were justified by Earths 0, 13 and 50 collapsing together. The real reason is that the map was likely drawn up after "Final Crisis" (which may or may not have happened post-"Flashpoint"), and it has not been edited.

My impression is that while some universes merged as a result of Flashpoint, a few universes were also separated, creating some new universes as a result. That would explain why some characters like Alan Scott and Jay Garrick don't exist on Earth 0 anymore, and why there is still Earths 13 and 50 in the New 52, albeit possibly not the same Earth 13 and 50 that existed pre-New 52.

How is limbo distinct from Earth 51? (I was given to understand that they were the same.)

I thought limbo was always it's own thing, existing outside the Multiverse.

But per 'New 52', EVERYTHING got reset, started over, began anew, etc.

Not everything got reset with the New 52. We have seen some things remained unchanged (even though some of it doesn't make any sense with things that were reset).

Is the Rock of Eternity in multiversal space or something now? I had always thought it was Earth-based, and thus any alternate Earth that had its own Shazam/Captain Marvel, would thus have its own Rock as well.

Yeah, I think they've turned the Rock of Eternity into a multiversal type of a thing that makes it essentially part of all the Earths in the multiverse rather than each Earth having its own Rock of Eternity as it was previously.

[BWprowl]

Not everything got reset with the New 52. We have seen some things remained unchanged (even though some of it doesn't make any sense with things that were reset).

Technically they still got reset, the backstory elements that seem the same are just 'new'/replacement events that happen to strongly resemble the old ones. It's like a new adaptation of the same backstory. It's sort of like...like how any given Spider-Man cartoon usually starts with Peter having his powers and Uncle Ben already being dead, just assuming that events similar to those early, establishing comics already happened, though those comics aren't actually canon to the cartoon itself. In the same way, some things a lot LIKE Emerald Twilight and Rebirth and so forth are established as happening to the new Hal Jordan in the new comics, but those old comics aren't actually canon to the new ones.

The entire point of the New-ish 52 was that DC was wiping EVERYTHING, cutting all the old books off and starting from scratch. The cosmic macguffin-y way in which they went about explaining it happening so that some obsessive nerds could sleep a bit better doesn't change the fact that they did it.

[andersonh1]

I'm not sure why the multiverse would be limited to 52. I like the idea of an infinity of universes, so many that it would be impossible to describe or map them all. I like to think the 52 we see are just the known alternate dimensions, and that there are countless others off panel.

[Sparky Prime]

Technically they still got reset, the backstory elements that seem the same are just 'new'/replacement events that happen to strongly resemble the old ones. It's like a new adaptation of the same backstory. It's sort of like...like how any given Spider-Man cartoon usually starts with Peter having his powers and Uncle Ben already being dead, just assuming that events similar to those early, establishing comics already happened, though those comics aren't actually canon to the cartoon itself. In the same way, some things a lot LIKE Emerald Twilight and Rebirth and so forth are established as happening to the new Hal Jordan in the new comics, but those old comics aren't actually canon to the new ones.

If you want to be technical about it, then nothing was actually reset. This isn't like all the Spider-Man cartoons that all exist independently from one another but all starts off with a similar origin story to one another that they can gloss over. The New 52 is technically the same DCU universe as the pre-Flashpoint universe, only its history was heavily altered by the mutliversal shenanigans. Some things are the same and some things are different.

The entire point of the New-ish 52 was that DC was wiping EVERYTHING, cutting all the old books off and starting from scratch. The cosmic macguffin-y way in which they went about explaining it happening so that some obsessive nerds could sleep a bit better doesn't change the fact that they did it.

If the entire point was to wipe everything and start from scratch, then they would have actually done that completely. Instead, they kept some of the continuity intact. And I doubt the cosmic explanation behind it was meant to appease obsessive nerds considering how drastically altered some of the characters and their history was, particularly when it's such big name characters like Superman that had the most changes to their history.

I'm not sure why the multiverse would be limited to 52. I like the idea of an infinity of universes, so many that it would be impossible to describe or map them all. I like to think the 52 we see are just the known alternate dimensions, and that there are countless others off panel.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you. I like the idea of an infinite number of universes more than having a finite number. Especially such a low number like 52. I really wonder where they got the number 52 from.

[BWprowl]

The New 52 is technically the same DCU universe as the pre-Flashpoint universe, only its history was heavily altered by the mutliversal shenanigans.

If by 'technically the same' and 'heavily altered' you actually mean 'entirely new' and 'discarded completely', then yeah, I agree with you there.

'Emerald Twilight' as it exists in comic form is absolutely not canon with current Green Lantern comics. Period. The same goes for every single other comic published before The New 52 launched.

If the entire point was to wipe everything and start from scratch, then they would have actually done that. Instead, they kept some of the continuity intact. And the cosmic explanation behind it certainly wasn't meant to appease obsessive nerds considering how completely altered some of the characters were while others were hardly changed at all.

The continuity that was 'kept intact' was story elements carried over at the whim of the writers, particularly Johns and Morrison, who were left working on their previous titles after the reset occurred and basically wanted to carry along with their original plans like nothing happened (incidentally, this is why Green Lantern and Batman have wound up with the most ridiculous amounts of backstory baggage they've had to cram into that absurd 5-year period The New 52 established as its timeline). That was on them, and likely how they would have gone about it had the reset occurred with in-story multiverse shenanigans or happened cold with no fictional justification whatsoever (IE: The previous comic lineup had just *ended* and the new continuity launched in its place). Using 'Flashpoint' as something of an explanation for the universe/continuity reset happening was not only clearly a late-game, post-hoc decision, but also came across as being done to give some comfort to more obsessive elements of the fandom (like, say, people who can't accept that all of Hal Jordan's pre-New-52 comics didn't actually happen in this new continuity) with a flimsy establishment that this brand-new continuity they were launching was still actually the old continuity, even if it had been completely wiped and reset.