Are toys dying? How can Hasbro spice up TFs?

[BWprowl]

Ok now I'm not even sure where you're going with this. It kind of sounds like you think Sparky and I were implying that hasbro should make the fiction first and the toys second which is not what we were saying at all. At least it's not what I was saying. I was just pointing out that figures of characters seen on tv and in comics are more desired than toys that aren't. Secondary market prices confirm that. Bonecrusher exists because BW is a toy line first and the show was based on that. But, the end result of that is that, now, years later, the characters that made it into the show are more popular and valuable than those that weren't. I think the way it should work, ideally, would be for the toys to be made first and then all of those characters show up in the fiction. Unfortunately, a lot of times, toy releases move much faster than the fiction can keep up and that's why you wind up with characters that have toys and nothing beyond that.

My point was that *none* of the toys need fiction at all to be worthwhile as toys unto themselves. Of course Bonecrusher loses out to Blackarachnia on eBay *now* because the people paying those prices are BW show fanboys who just want the characters they're fans of. But back in 1995, when it was kids pulling the toys off the shelf based on what they thought was cool? Both had an equal shot. I happily bought Skyshadow over Silverbolt initially because Skyshadow looked cooler and more fun than Silverbolt, regardless of the fact that Silverbolt was in the show and Skyshadown wasn't. In fact, I took Skyshadow home and *hoped* he would appear in the show at some point, rather than this other-way-around nonsense guys like Dom do where they would have to wait for Skyshadow to appear in the fiction before they would even think of picking up his otherwise-excellent toy. You miss out on some great stuff that way.

As for Neon Night Attack Batman, I think you're giving toy companies too much credit. They make toys like this because there's very much a mentality in the toy industry that a toy has to have some goofy gimmick in order to sell to kids. Which is bullshit. And I think that's the point that Dom, Sparky and I are making is that even when we were kids, when we saw the '89 Batman film, we wanted to own Batman figures that looked like they did in that thing we saw, not Batman figures that look like they were rejects from a 1980's WHAM! music video. Action figures are unto themselves fun to play with and they don't need extra bullshit gimmicks to sell them. The sooner toy companies realize that, the happier everyone (kids, collectors, fans) will be.

If it's such bullshit, then (and I'll keep asking this) why do they keep doing it? Do you seriously think Mattel would keep releasing wild, unique, gimmicked-up Batmen, in every single Batman line, since at least the 80's up 'til now, if they didn't sell? Would Hasbro still be sticking Underwater Armor Spider-Man and the like in their lines if doing so wasn't a proven, successful part of a given toyline? They've had at least thirty years for this 'obvious' wisdom you're espousing that doing figures like that doesn't work, but they KEEP doing that so obviously it DOES work. I'm not sure how long you've been in the action-figure-making business, but guys like Hasbro and Mattel have been doing it for a little while, so I'm inclined to believe that they have an inkling as to what they're doing here.

Yes, when you were a kid you just wanted plain ol' character figures that Looked Like A Guy and were posable and not much else, but given the way action figures and toys have ALWAYS had their lines done, have you considered that your tastes might have been an anomaly? When I was a kid, I happily preferred Silver Knight Batman with sword-slashing action, Radioactive Armor Spider-Man with attachable missile launchers, and any of the various costumed, transforming Ninja Turtles, despite none of those things having any context in any of the fiction that I'd encountered; I liked them because they were *fun toys*.

[Shockwave]

Well ok, yeah I'll agree with you on that first part. I mean if we're just looking at whether or not toys are worthwhile as toys then sure, sky's the limit and fiction or no fiction doesn't (or really shouldn't) factor into that equation.

As for gimmicks. I've almost always hated gimmicks, specifically because they generally make toys less fun to play with. Case in point: I'd rather have a Batman with 20 points of articulation in his normal colors over a Batman with like, 4 points of articulation because Mattel had to instead cram some crappy neon colored water gun gimmick in it instead. And unfortunately that's what usually happens with gimmicks, they wind up hindering what the toy should be (either through gimped out articulation or missing accessories or worse, both). There are some exceptions but that's usually what happens.

As for if I'm in the minority or not, I kind of don't think so. I've often seen similar sentiments expressed in the pages of magazines like Toyfare and Toy Review and even on toy sites like here and TFW. And I really don't think using the fact that the industry keeps doing it as a measure of success is really a viable measure of quality. Sales =/= quality. A lot of those kids could wind up buying these things only to get home and wanna throw them out. It's a bit like saying the Transformers movies are good because they're profitable and I don't think anyone here on this site would say that. And there in lies the problem. Companies only look at profit for a measure of what "works" when in reality, all that does is tell you what sold, not whether or not people actually liked or wanted it.

And the other problem too is even in a line where there are options, like if you can buy regular Batman or Neon Bats, how many neon ones are there for every regular one? We've certainly seen this level of uneven distribution in several lines. The most recent and obvious example I can think of is the reason for the demise of the 200x He-Man toy line. Mattel cranked out 24 different versions of Skeletor and 26 different versions of He-Man. There were only 22 other characters, including their repaints. Needless to say, getting other characters is problematic when there's only 1 Trap Jaw 3 He-Man and 2 Skeletors per case of 6. Especially when the Skeletor is something like the "Halloween" Skeletor with his chest all transmetally and neon yellow armor. Why did they make that? Who was that for? Who in their right mind was calling for that version to be made? Kids weren't and I know collectors weren't so why the hell did they do that? And that was as late as 2004! Only ten years ago that and companies are still pulling this kind of shit.

Or, from 2008: The Classics Optimus Prime/Megatron two pack. Optimus had that stupid spinning whirlygig gimmick that sucked all the awesome out of a potentially good figure and the same with Megatron's arm. Again, who was it that was calling for these toys? Where were the kids yelling for more gimmicks? Or the collectors wanting more spinning from their TFs? Sure, they eventually all sold, but the other thing too, is how many of these either sold at deep clearance or just got sent back? I mean, just because they're not in stores anymore, doesn't mean they all sold at full price or even at all. Retailers will send product back after a certain amount of time.

I guess I just have to wonder, why can't just having a good toy with good accessories of a character you like be gimmick enough? That really REALLY should just be enough.

[Sparky Prime]

Well I don't know about you, but I generally grab a Transformer for the same reason I pick up a Nerf gun or a DX Kamen Rider belt: Because it looks entertaining to play with.

I was never that big of a fan of Nerf personally. I only had one as a kid as far as I remember, the Bow 'n' Arrow that came out in the early 90's. Super Soakers on the other hand.... The Kamen Rider belt is pretty much the morpher of that series right? I had several of the Power Ranger morphers. I don't think I would have bought them if it hadn't been for the show though. You used those to pretend you were the Rangers, like on the show. Entertaining sure, but point being it's a different experience role playing with those toys than it is to play with action figures.

My point was that *none* of the toys need fiction at all to be worthwhile as toys unto themselves. Of course Bonecrusher loses out to Blackarachnia on eBay *now* because the people paying those prices are BW show fanboys who just want the characters they're fans of. But back in 1995, when it was kids pulling the toys off the shelf based on what they thought was cool? Both had an equal shot. I happily bought Skyshadow over Silverbolt initially because Skyshadow looked cooler and more fun than Silverbolt, regardless of the fact that Silverbolt was in the show and Skyshadown wasn't. In fact, I took Skyshadow home and *hoped* he would appear in the show at some point, rather than this other-way-around nonsense guys like Dom do where they would have to wait for Skyshadow to appear in the fiction before they would even think of picking up his otherwise-excellent toy. You miss out on some great stuff that way.

Even if the toys are worthwhile on their own, the fiction can still help to sell them as well as influence what people buy. I didn't particularly care for most of the Fuzor designs back when they were originally released personally, so in that situation those toys weren't enough to sell me on them alone. As such, the only two Fuzors I ended up getting were Silverbolt and Quickstrike because they were on the show. Maybe if some of the others had appeared on the show that would have influenced me to get them as well, but I don't really feel that I missed out on anything because those toys just didn't appeal to me that much on their own.

[Onslaught Six]

There is accessible media and figures of characters that people want. Hasbro tried something similar with "GI Joe" last year. But, kids do not care about "GI Joe" and adult collectors were not terribly interested in the game figures or the game itself.

Huh?

Are you actually referring to the fact that the Rise of Cobra toyline from 2009 had a handful of dudes from the video game? Most notably, Agent Helix, a character they invented for the game? (I think there was Flash and Gung-Ho and like two Cobra army builders too.)

OVA (is that term still used)

Less and less; most anime is going more for the "theatrical release" route these days (See: Madoka Magica) which makes them more "movies" than "OVAs."

I do remember the days of the 90s, though, where there was the movie, then the anime, and then the OVA, and they all contradicted each other. (Not even getting into the print world with manga/anime differences.)

I have heard plenty of good things about figures like Scorn and Strafe. I have passed on both multiple times because I am not terribly interested in Bayformers.

I'll admit that after actually seeing the movie, my interest waned a lot. But everything is going to be around for a while now, so I'll be able to pick up the other Dinobots later on.

Similarly, I have been waiting 15 years for good figures of the Vehicon Generals.

You got them. They were released in Beast Machines. Every Vehicon released in that toyline was an awesome toy; it's not their fault they didn't look like a deliberately stylized cartoon.

(Is Hasbro planning to release Stinger? I dunno.)

Apparently the only Deluxe one is going to be in a multipack with...a Leader Prime repaint.

My money is on him being a Bumblebee retool, or a repaint of a recent Generations figure, not unlike Rollbar.

Look at Evasion Mode Optimus Prime. That’s a brilliantly-designed figure (it was designed/engineered by the guy who did something like half the Masterpiece line) utterly brought down by craptacular paint aps.

It says something that they are actually releasing a "premium" repaint set of all 5 Autobots from the movie.

Yes, when you were a kid you just wanted plain ol' character figures that Looked Like A Guy and were posable and not much else, but given the way action figures and toys have ALWAYS had their lines done, have you considered that your tastes might have been an anomaly? When I was a kid, I happily preferred Silver Knight Batman with sword-slashing action, Radioactive Armor Spider-Man with attachable missile launchers, and any of the various costumed, transforming Ninja Turtles, despite none of those things having any context in any of the fiction that I'd encountered; I liked them because they were *fun toys*.

Very recently, my mother was moving out of our childhood home, and in preperation, I took what was to be my final trip there. I went up through the attic and went through all my childhood crap. Obviously, anything TF-related that wasn't a stack of Armada or Energon-era packaging was coming with me. (There wasn't much that I hadn't already grabbed on a previous trip; mostly some BW stuff that I'd forgotten about.) Among this was my old boxes of TAS and '89 era Batman stuff, plus my TMNT stuff. I grabbed only a handful of each to "keep" and decided the rest could go to a yard sale. (The stuff that wasn't broken, anyway, because I can't sell that in good conscience.)

I kept a handful of the TMNT stuff that was mostly cool non-show (or one-off episode) figures that I remembered having a good time with--Mondo Gecko, Panda Khan, that dude who was an obvious parody of The Fly--and my Basketball Donatello. For some reason, that toy had a lot of weird sentimental and memorial value to me. I couldn't just sell it off. I don't know why. I have no idea when I would ever want or need a figure of Donatello in (what is clearly intended to be) a Chicago Bulls uniform with neon green sunglasses. But I couldn't get rid of it. So, I dunno.

And there in lies the problem. Companies only look at profit for a measure of what "works" when in reality, all that does is tell you what sold, not whether or not people actually liked or wanted it.

If it sells, and continues to sell, there is absolutely zero reason to stop doing it.

Until the day a Michael Bay Transformers movie makes less than a million dollars, they will continue to make them. Period.

[Shockwave]

On the subject in the title, as to if toys are dying as an industry... I don't think so. In fact, if anything I think it's grown to a point where things are better now than they ever have been. Toy manufacturers have a lot more options for provided product to customers and this has led to a lot of toys being made that would have been impossible before. Things like online exclusives and collector driven line allow toys that would appeal to a smaller audience get made in a way that's still profitable for the company and gets consumers the toys that they want. And with online stores, consumers have more access to buy stuff than they would otherwise.

[Tigermegatron]

Hasbro's bad marketing and terrible toy colors is what made the Transformers Prime & Beast Hunters toy line do so badly in stores. Takara colored the toys nicer which resulted in higher toy sales for them.

I felt that Leader Sized Predaking was the best made toy out of the entire BH toy line, it was marketed badly so it did poor in sales. Had that BH 14 inch Optimus been 9 inches. That 9 inch BH Optimus & 9 inch BH Predaking could have both shipped in the same assortment box.

Transformers Prime had bad marketing from the start. As the toys were 6+ months late after the cartoon aired. Those FE toys were hard to find & were discontinued super fast.

Overstuffing those deluxe bumblebee's in those earlier waves really hurt the sales of TFP deluxes. as stores refused to order newer deluxe waves unti, the bumblebees were sold.

[Shockwave]

I'll agree that the current business model for a lot of manufacturers is a bit screwy but I honestly don't think that's limited to toys. I think there's a lot of companies that are trying to find their footing in the new digital age. Things can be done now that couldn't be done before and I think it's just a matter of just going through the growing pains of adjusting to new technologies. I mean, economic stability is still measure by how much brick and mortar stores make every year on black Friday, which often times doesn't account for online sales. With more people turning to online as a means of buying stuff, the entire economic model has to change and everyone is still playing catch up. But, I don't think it'll be very long until a new status quo is found.

[Mako Crab]

On the topic- I work at a Wal-Mart and I've been watching the AOE voyagers shelf-warm. So yesterday I turned them all around, so customers could see both robot and vehicle mode in the pic on the back. Curious to see if that does anything. I also made sure that the truck forms of Megatron and Optimus were facing each other.

[JediTricks]

Toys have been dying for about 15 years now. The general trend is similar to what happened with comics starting in the 70s, but it seems to be happening faster with toys. (I have not crunched specific sales and market data.) Generally, the market is shrinking and getting older. Attempts to capture kids (be it with "Transformers" or most any line) are anemic at best.

This isn't accurate, the last 5 years of toy sales have either been steady or shown small growth, no loss, and the amount of toy exports from the US has tripled in the last decade. Licensed toys were up 6% and then 3%. Yet Hasbro has shown losses in those same areas, which caused them to convulse by shrinking their workforce and lowering costs and quality while raising prices, actions that have coincided with the company losing ground to LEGO and Mattel.

Not so much. That market is occupied by existing games now.

That's what GI Joe should really do as a brand, pump out a fantastic FPS game that exploits the fun of character choice, marketing the characters through the game without trying to make it too realistic. The FPS is on its way out, a slam dunk console game would reignite the older GI Joe buyers. There still needs to be a cartoon for kids though, and Hasbro seems incapable of delivering one that speaks to the 8 year olds out there. Without that connection, that brand will remain lost in the woods. And maybe that's how it has to be until it can find a new identity that resonates with today's audiences.

I should probably specify at this point that I was primarily talking about the 6-inch SW Black figures, which are the ones getting the big push as 'Premium' figures. The 4-inch figures are basically the same SW figures we've always been getting, and are fine for it, to Hasbro's credit.

The 5 POA Saga Legends figures are just a budget line meant to provide cheaper buying options for kids, there's a similar Avengers line out alongside the Marvel Legends and Universe figures. They aren't the new 'standard' anymore than Legion/Legends or Titan Heroes are the new 'standard' for TF figures, and accusing them of somehow limiting the line when the regular, fully-articulated SW toys are still RIGHT THERE next to them isn't being entirely fair.

This was their plan with all 3 main boys toys brands, it's not just Star Wars, and so far only Star Wars has been able to deliver on the simplified cheaper figures, with the Marvel cheaper figures being awful, and the TF cheaper figures getting turned into $10 basics; on the other hand, Marvel actually made their 12" cheapies work while SW has kinda limped into it and TF has utterly failed there. Then there are $10 figures and larger $20 figures, both touted as "premium" - Marvel and SW have 3.75" and 6" figures to fill those, while TF has Legends/Deluxe and Voyager to fill them.

Hasbro's SW "premium" 3.75-inch line is more expensive than their previous figures yet with less quality, it's really disappointing. Meanwhile, the quality on their 6" line has quickly devolved. Saga Legends has been staying its own pace, although showing paint quality issues starting to creep in badly.


You know what you guys are all missing about using media to market these toys? Ads - Hasbro utterly sucks at ads now, they are all kinda stuck in the '90s with their extreme music and whip-pans and lightning editing, they stopped making ads that make the toy and the toy's universe look fun. Media or no media, Hasbro sucks at the actual MARKETING aspect these days.

If it's such bullshit, then (and I'll keep asking this) why do they keep doing it? Do you seriously think Mattel would keep releasing wild, unique, gimmicked-up Batmen, in every single Batman line, since at least the 80's up 'til now, if they didn't sell? Would Hasbro still be sticking Underwater Armor Spider-Man and the like in their lines if doing so wasn't a proven, successful part of a given toyline? They've had at least thirty years for this 'obvious' wisdom you're espousing that doing figures like that doesn't work, but they KEEP doing that so obviously it DOES work. I'm not sure how long you've been in the action-figure-making business, but guys like Hasbro and Mattel have been doing it for a little while, so I'm inclined to believe that they have an inkling as to what they're doing here.

Hasbro and Matty both do this with major character superheroes - chiefly Batman, Iron Man, and Spider-Man - because they know they can get away with it, they know the kids who will age out of buying every variation of a Batman figure will age out before they get wise to the schtick, and a new generation of young kids will take their place because the characters have built-in appeal. Then they get confused about who they're marketing that garbage to, and they start to talk themselves into believing that more savvy collectors will also carry that tune, which ends up tanking the collector line once they've exhausted the good ideas and the passable ideas.

On the subject in the title, as to if toys are dying as an industry... I don't think so. In fact, if anything I think it's grown to a point where things are better now than they ever have been. Toy manufacturers have a lot more options for provided product to customers and this has led to a lot of toys being made that would have been impossible before. Things like online exclusives and collector driven line allow toys that would appeal to a smaller audience get made in a way that's still profitable for the company and gets consumers the toys that they want. And with online stores, consumers have more access to buy stuff than they would otherwise.

That was true a few years ago, but now it's an industry that's not delivering as well as it used to, and those exclusives are falling down on the job while the mainlines aren't carrying their end of things. The industry is surviving on licensing alone, the actual marketing, distribution, and product angles are all in decline. Notice how non-licensed toys that are succeeding - building toys and robotics - are almost exclusively from companies that aren't doing licensed traditional toys now, as the big toy companies are losing a step by not innovating.

On the topic- I work at a Wal-Mart and I've been watching the AOE voyagers shelf-warm. So yesterday I turned them all around, so customers could see both robot and vehicle mode in the pic on the back. Curious to see if that does anything. I also made sure that the truck forms of Megatron and Optimus were facing each other.

How did that turn out?