It's not a difference in definition, it's a difference in perception of roles. Hot Rod is not a legitimate part of a fight between them, I go back to "stick them in an empty room" argument and Hot Rod has no place there, so he is an OUTSIDE factor.Dominic wrote:I think the disagreement about Hotrod is one of definition.
I agree that he was a variable on the battle-field. But, I am giving Megatron points for his ability to "use" variables more efficiently than Prime. (Prime would probably not take a Decepticon and use him as a shield. And, if he did, Megatron would probably not care.) The ability to react to, and exploit, changing field conditions, is a legitimate advantage, hence me calling Hotrod a "legitimate" part of the fight.
I threw out the idea of IG88 being in control of the DS (any iteration), as there is official precedent for it, and it gives yet another "best possible" controller option.
Dom
Armada Unicron
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Re: Armada Unicron
See, that one's a camcorder, that one's a camera, that one's a phone, and they're doing "Speak no evil, See no evil, Hear no evil", get it?
Re: Armada Unicron
But, the Prime/Megatron fight is a perfect example of why we have to define the terrain. Prime and Megatron were not fighting in an empty room. They were fighting on a battle-field, with all of the mess factors that implies. Hotrod is a factor on that battle-field that Megatron was able to exploit.
In any empty room, Prime would have won. But, on an actual cluttered field, Megatron would win. The same principle would apply with Unicron and the DS, (assuming we manage to define either of them). The winner in a clear sector of space could be different from the winner in a more cluttered sector of space. The terrain matters as much as the combatants.
Dom
In any empty room, Prime would have won. But, on an actual cluttered field, Megatron would win. The same principle would apply with Unicron and the DS, (assuming we manage to define either of them). The winner in a clear sector of space could be different from the winner in a more cluttered sector of space. The terrain matters as much as the combatants.
Dom
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Re: Armada Unicron
So, does this mean you agree the Death Star would defeat Unicron without any outside influences..? If so, specifically what outside influences would give Unicron the edge?
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Re: Armada Unicron
I would think that the simple fact that Unicron can transform, and has his own conciousness would give him the edge. The Death Star has to be operated by thousands of people, but Unicron just thinks it and does it, dodges around a bit, makes sure he's on the opposite side as the planet-busting cannon, then proceeds to dismember the Death Star bit by bit.onslaught86 wrote:So, does this mean you agree the Death Star would defeat Unicron without any outside influences..? If so, specifically what outside influences would give Unicron the edge?
Re: Armada Unicron
Even assuming an "empty room", (maybe a Dyson Sphere?), to have a real answer, we would have to determine which iteration of both parties is part of the fight. The DS could have a different commander and crew. Unicron would have different abilities.
Outside influences, (or simply messy suprises on a more cluttered field), could help either combatant. For example, Unicron hiding behind something the Empire is unwilling to sacrifice could tip things in his favor. The presence in the vicinity of a support fleet could help the Empire. A skilled Imperial Commander might see some other variable they could exploit. Unicron could be distracted by a passing ship full of Cybertronians. (Obviously, the above list is a big part of the reason JT is arguing for an "empty room".)
Of course, we still have to define the combatants.
Dom
-wants to roll a 2D6.
Outside influences, (or simply messy suprises on a more cluttered field), could help either combatant. For example, Unicron hiding behind something the Empire is unwilling to sacrifice could tip things in his favor. The presence in the vicinity of a support fleet could help the Empire. A skilled Imperial Commander might see some other variable they could exploit. Unicron could be distracted by a passing ship full of Cybertronians. (Obviously, the above list is a big part of the reason JT is arguing for an "empty room".)
Of course, we still have to define the combatants.
Dom
-wants to roll a 2D6.
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Re: Armada Unicron
This is a poor argument, you are essentially saying that any deus ex machina is an acceptable X-factor in a battle scenario. Hot Rod had free will, as an OUTSIDE factor he chose to interject without thinking, but had this been Bumblebee instead of Roddy there, Megatron would not have won. This isn't like Megatron using a boulder to kill Prime a la Wile E. Coyote. In space, Unicron vs the Death Star could very easily be in the "empty room" scenario, that's the majority of space, you know.Dominic wrote:But, the Prime/Megatron fight is a perfect example of why we have to define the terrain. Prime and Megatron were not fighting in an empty room. They were fighting on a battle-field, with all of the mess factors that implies. Hotrod is a factor on that battle-field that Megatron was able to exploit.
In any empty room, Prime would have won. But, on an actual cluttered field, Megatron would win. The same principle would apply with Unicron and the DS, (assuming we manage to define either of them). The winner in a clear sector of space could be different from the winner in a more cluttered sector of space. The terrain matters as much as the combatants.
See, that one's a camcorder, that one's a camera, that one's a phone, and they're doing "Speak no evil, See no evil, Hear no evil", get it?
Re: Armada Unicron
Look at the battle-field as a game board. (If you like child-development theory, think of the transactional model here.) Anything, including other combatants, are factors in a battle. Some factors are more important than others. But, if it is a factor on the field, it is a variable in the fight.
If you have an army that includes hot-headed twerps who rush head-long into danger, that a is a factor. If your enemy has those twerps, that is also a factor. The ability to make use of that is also a factor. Megatron was willing/able to use that to his advantage. Prime was neither.
And, even assuming "empty space", (in contrast to genre conventions), how we define Unicron and the Death Star is still important.
Dom
-still betting on Unicron, despite hating the character.
If you have an army that includes hot-headed twerps who rush head-long into danger, that a is a factor. If your enemy has those twerps, that is also a factor. The ability to make use of that is also a factor. Megatron was willing/able to use that to his advantage. Prime was neither.
And, even assuming "empty space", (in contrast to genre conventions), how we define Unicron and the Death Star is still important.
Dom
-still betting on Unicron, despite hating the character.
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Re: Armada Unicron
See, I don't hate Unicron as much as I hate Unicron's overuse. If we only got a new Unicron story even every five years or so, I'd be into it. But at this rate it'll need to be about 2011 for me to accept a good, new Unicron story.Dominic wrote:-still betting on Unicron, despite hating the character.
...wait, that's when the third movie should come out. Shit.
Re: Armada Unicron
Hopefully, Hasbro will tone down Unicron. (I am just happy IDW is staying away from that.)
Unicron is a character that lends itself to bad writing. You are right that Unicron is over-used. Limited use will not change that, thought it would be more tolerable.
Dom
-wonders if the trend towards mysticism in TF relates to increased superstition in the US.
Unicron is a character that lends itself to bad writing. You are right that Unicron is over-used. Limited use will not change that, thought it would be more tolerable.
Dom
-wonders if the trend towards mysticism in TF relates to increased superstition in the US.
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Re: Armada Unicron
Well, yeah, Unicron Stories were never A+ material to begin with, but it's more easy to digest if it only happens so often. We were getting the big sucker shoved down our throats every year with ArmEnerTron and the first Universe, plus he was starting to show up in the DW G1 stuff too if I'm not wrong.
That said, I'd still like to see a really well-done Unicron story.
That said, I'd still like to see a really well-done Unicron story.