David Willis writes about BW
- Onslaught Six
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
Except they didn't do anything with the setting that they *couldn't* have done anywhere else. Except for, again, go, "Hey look! It's Cheetor! You guys like Cheetor, right?!"
No I do not fucking like Cheetor. Cheetor sucks.
No I do not fucking like Cheetor. Cheetor sucks.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
I get the feeling you wanted to say "could" there rather than "couldn't"... But anyway, once again (because I know this has been mentioned at least twice already), the setting of the comic *could not* have taken place anywhere else for two specific reasons: One, the Tripredacus Council sent Magmatron to capture Megatron after Ravage failed. And two, that was the only place Magmatron could fulfill his own goals, using the unguarded stasis pods from the Axalon to easily convert into new Predacons, which he wanted for his own personal army.Onslaught Six wrote:Except they didn't do anything with the setting that they *couldn't* have done anywhere else.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
That's a little different though. The G1 characters in BW were really only there for 'The Agenda', where their main purpose was for Optimus Prime to get his head blown off and leave us hanging for half a year wondering if he would survive or if history would actually be rewritten. They weren't awake, but their being there was an actual *plot point*. Yeah, the Maximals built their base into part of The Ark, but they didn't make a big thing of showing off G1 cameos or anything every time we saw a scene in the Maximal base. In contrast, half of the gimmick of 'The Gathering' was that the show guys were in the background, but not being affected by the plot. This thing actually took up panels and pages showing off Cheetor and Silverbolt and Inferno sitting around not contributing anything to the story.Sparky Prime wrote:You've completely missed the point. It's not an issue of when those elements where introduced in the show, rather just the *correlation* that the G1 characters were there yet didn't really do anything in the show, while a *similar situation* was had in the comic where the characters from the show didn't really do anything.
Again, you're kinda missing the point here. Those plot reasons you're citing are there specifically because IDW or Furman or whoever wanted to do a BW story that included all the show guys, but somehow didn't screw with their storyline. They didn't go "Okay, so we'll have Magmatron's crew land on prehistoric Earth and-oh hey! We can have all the BW show guys pop up in the background! That's a cool coincidence!". Instead, it was more like "Okay, the Show guys have to be in this. So we need to get Magmatron's crew on prehistoric Earth somehow. Um...how about the Tripredacus Council sends him to kill Megatron? Or he wants the stasis pods there, I dunno."But anyway, once again (because I know this has been mentioned at least twice already), the setting of the comic *could not* have taken place anywhere else for two specific reasons: One, the Tripredacus Council sent Magmatron to capture Megatron after Ravage failed. And two, that was the only place Magmatron could fulfill his own goals, using the unguarded stasis pods from the Axalon to easily convert into new Predacons, which he wanted for his own personal army.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
I'm perfectly happy to leave the argument here. I don't think it's going to go anywhere except round and round in circles.BWprowl wrote:Y'know, I actually get what you're saying here, and it boils the argument down to a couple base points that help resolve this cold war that starts up whenever we discuss this series. Basically:Sparky Prime wrote:Exactly. It's impossible to say if a story with out the cameos from the shows characters would have been any better or worst. Although, personally, I really liked "The Gathering" as it was.
A. I think 'The Gathering' had a sucky story, and I blame the shoehorned-in BW show setting and cast for causing said suckiness.
B. You think 'The Gathering' had an awesome story, and that the extra BW show cameos were clever window dressing that made it even better.
I can honestly respect that. You've resolved the argument with me, at least.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
The comic taking place during the show was just as much of a *plot point* as the G1 characters were to BW. Seriously, I think you're blowing the show's characters brief cameos out of proportion. They were hardly "half the gimmick" and of course they don't contribute much to the story. The point of the comic isn't to follow what they show's characters are doing, it's to follow the characters of the comic. Still, their brief appearances are not arbitrary as you suggest they were. It made sense Razorbeast's team needing some supplies, would pass the Maximals, in their own base, on their way to sneak some stuff off of the Ark. Or that we'd see a couple Predacons (set during "Changing of the Guard" returning with the Sentinel program) as Magmatron decided to follow his original mission to capture Megatron (who was a plot point to the comic). Even Dephtcharge's brief cameo was to illustrate how the comic characters were chronically displaced.BWprowl wrote:That's a little different though. The G1 characters in BW were really only there for 'The Agenda', where their main purpose was for Optimus Prime to get his head blown off and leave us hanging for half a year wondering if he would survive or if history would actually be rewritten. They weren't awake, but their being there was an actual *plot point*. Yeah, the Maximals built their base into part of The Ark, but they didn't make a big thing of showing off G1 cameos or anything every time we saw a scene in the Maximal base. In contrast, half of the gimmick of 'The Gathering' was that the show guys were in the background, but not being affected by the plot. This thing actually took up panels and pages showing off Cheetor and Silverbolt and Inferno sitting around not contributing anything to the story.
Again, you're kinda missing the point here. Those plot reasons you're citing are there specifically because IDW or Furman or whoever wanted to do a BW story that included all the show guys, but somehow didn't screw with their storyline.
And again, you can't say the setting could have happened anywhere else when the plot establishes very clearly why they are there. What you and O6 are talking about is actually to make it a different story altogether, since what you're saying would mean not just changing the setting but the actual plot of the story. And again, the comic clearly wasn't about including the show characters given how small of a role they had. The story was about these new characters using a set up from the show.
I'm inclined to agree now that I feel like I'm repeating myself...andersonh1 wrote:I'm perfectly happy to leave the argument here. I don't think it's going to go anywhere except round and round in circles.
- Onslaught Six
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
Of course it would change the plot--a bad plot that was invented merely to move set pieces around so the new characters would end up in the old setting.
I was a kid when BW aired. And I ended up with a lot of non-show toys. I had Polar Claw and Buzzclaw and a bunch of other guys, and I was missing some show characters. I would often have to invent reasons for why, in canon, Polar Claw would be here. It wasn't because the plot of the BW show *actually* called for Polar Claw to be there. They didn't need a polar bear guy, they had Tigatron. But I didn't have Tigatron, so I had to come up with a reason for why Tigatron was dead or otherwise incapacitated, and then why Polar Claw would be on Earth.
I could have just made up stories about Polar Claw doin' stuff on Cybertron. Or even on an entirely seperate part of prehistoric Earth, away from the Maximals! But I didn't, because I just haaad to have those show characters in it. So I forced the storyline so that I could use Polar Claw.
Furman did the exact same thing. The difference is, I was nine when I was doing this.
I was a kid when BW aired. And I ended up with a lot of non-show toys. I had Polar Claw and Buzzclaw and a bunch of other guys, and I was missing some show characters. I would often have to invent reasons for why, in canon, Polar Claw would be here. It wasn't because the plot of the BW show *actually* called for Polar Claw to be there. They didn't need a polar bear guy, they had Tigatron. But I didn't have Tigatron, so I had to come up with a reason for why Tigatron was dead or otherwise incapacitated, and then why Polar Claw would be on Earth.
I could have just made up stories about Polar Claw doin' stuff on Cybertron. Or even on an entirely seperate part of prehistoric Earth, away from the Maximals! But I didn't, because I just haaad to have those show characters in it. So I forced the storyline so that I could use Polar Claw.
Furman did the exact same thing. The difference is, I was nine when I was doing this.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
What if they had written a plot with much the same premise, that Magmatron was sent to fulfill the mission that Ravage failed to carry out, and Furman omitted the time displacement gimmicks entirely? And we just have the new characters trying to keep out of the way of the old ones for the most part. Does that change your opinion of the plot? Or the new characters mix it up with the TV characters and involve them deeply in the plot... does that make a difference?Onslaught Six wrote:Of course it would change the plot--a bad plot that was invented merely to move set pieces around so the new characters would end up in the old setting.
Of course without the time displacement, not only do continuity issues come to the fore, but Razorbeast has to find a new way to beat Magmatron at the end. The entire climax of the storyline depends on Razorclaw being far more clever at using Magmatron's equipment than Magmatron is.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
I'd be much more okay with it, because then we'd actually have a reason for the show characters being there. There'd be something substantial being done with them. There'd be no problem with it, either, because by the very nature of the timetravel in BW, we don't know what was "predestined" to happen and what was changable. So Magmatron going back could, in effect, royally fuck up the BW present just by being there--and then there'd be something *really* interesting going on. They could've overwritten Beast Machines, even! That'd make a bunch of those so-called fans happy.andersonh1 wrote:What if they had written a plot with much the same premise, that Magmatron was sent to fulfill the mission that Ravage failed to carry out, and Furman omitted the time displacement gimmicks entirely? And we just have the new characters trying to keep out of the way of the old ones for the most part. Does that change your opinion of the plot? Or the new characters mix it up with the TV characters and involve them deeply in the plot... does that make a difference?Onslaught Six wrote:Of course it would change the plot--a bad plot that was invented merely to move set pieces around so the new characters would end up in the old setting.
Of course without the time displacement, not only do continuity issues come to the fore, but Razorbeast has to find a new way to beat Magmatron at the end. The entire climax of the storyline depends on Razorclaw being far more clever at using Magmatron's equipment than Magmatron is.
Re: David Willis writes about BW
Or, they could have had stasis pods opening all over, and guys trying to reach the main characters. If the main characters need to show up, have the comic-only guys viewing them from a distance....and maybe deciding that they want nothing to do with the main characters. Then towards the end of seaon 3, the comic characters split and become new Maximals and Predacons....and hey....no time-wank.
Dom
-agrees that Furman wrote like a small child.
Dom
-agrees that Furman wrote like a small child.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW
Onslaught Six wrote:I could have just made up stories about Polar Claw doin' stuff on Cybertron. Or even on an entirely seperate part of prehistoric Earth, away from the Maximals! But I didn't, because I just haaad to have those show characters in it. So I forced the storyline so that I could use Polar Claw.
Furman did the exact same thing. The difference is, I was nine when I was doing this.
So first you criticize Furman for having the shows characters in it at all, comparing it to your own childhood stories mixing/replacing non-show characters with show characters, but then you say you'd be "more okay" with it if the show characters had more involvement with the comic story? That is one of the most arbitrary arguments I have ever seen.Onslaught Six wrote:I'd be much more okay with it, because then we'd actually have a reason for the show characters being there. There'd be something substantial being done with them.
Also, what you describe your stories to be is not the exact same thing that Furman did with the comic given he established a degree of segmentation between the show and the comic stories, using some plot threads from the show so as not to force the storyline. What you suggest by giving the show characters more involvement with the comic would actually be more like your childhood stories. And screwing with the story of the cartoon I can pretty much guarantee you would have pissed off a lot of fans.