The Oracle's Plan

[SynjoDeonecros]

While "participating' in the long "debate" over Beast Machines' "preachiness" on another thread, I came to realize something: the entire "technology vs. nature" philosophical debate the show was partially based on is based on a LIE, a lie of continuity problems.

Here's what I'm talking about: The reason why the Oracle needed the Beast Warriors was so they could help it reformat all of Cybertron into a technorganic paradise. Okay, whatever, but here's the thing: it's shown throughout the series that the planet already had organic material deep below the surface, and as shown in Beast Wars, the planet had long developed DNA scanning technology that allowed them to convert themselves into pseudo-cyborgs, technology that they used in numerous expeditions which undoubtedly brought in even MORE organic material, technology that - according to Nightscream - the population of Cybertron had INTERNALIZED during a mass upgrade.

So, essentially, the Oracle had EVERYTHING IT NEEDED for its planetary reformatting, and in that case...why did it need the Beast Warriors? Yes, I know that Mainframe supposedly told the dev team to ignore all previous continuity with this show, to avoid it being "continuity-heavy" like Beast Wars supposedly was, but that still leaves Nightscream's assertion about the internalized DNA scanners. So, in order to tell an aesop about a balance needing to be met between technology and nature, the dev team completely ignored the fact that their subjects were ALREADY achieving that same balance, on their own?

[andersonh1]

No, because the Oracle wanted Cybertron and all the Transformers living there to have organic components. The internal DNA scanners were used for offworld missions and for modes needed on those missions, not for alt modes on Cybertron itself. Remember Rattrap's assertion in the first episode that "our own kind don't recognize us in these lousy fur coats we're wearing"? Remember all of Nightscream's flashbacks where every bot was blocky and mechanical?

The Oracle didn't just need the organic material, it needed bots who believed in its cause to make the changes to Cybertron, and apparently Optimus Primal was the first one to come down the pike who fit that description.

[SynjoDeonecros]

No, because the Oracle wanted Cybertron and all the Transformers living there to have organic components. The internal DNA scanners were used for offworld missions and for modes needed on those missions, not for alt modes on Cybertron itself. Remember Rattrap's assertion in the first episode that "our own kind don't recognize us in these lousy fur coats we're wearing"? Remember all of Nightscream's flashbacks where every bot was blocky and mechanical?

The Oracle didn't just need the organic material, it needed bots who believed in its cause to make the changes to Cybertron, and apparently Optimus Primal was the first one to come down the pike who fit that description.

...wait, then how did they purge their systems of the organic alt modes that they get during offworld missions? And why would EVERYONE be equipped with those scanners during the great upgrade, if not EVERYONE goes on those missions? That seems like quite a big plot hole to justify requiring the Axalon crew for the Oracle's plan; true, most of them were altered beyond the scope of what the DNA scanners were capable of dealing with, but not Rhinox. Seriously, plenty of Transformers would do what Vector Sigma (of which the Oracle was a shell program of) requested of them, so why did it wait until Megatron had almost completely conquered the planet and left it with virtually no subjects left to fulfill its plan to execute it? Was it waiting for Optimus? The first season DID have the Oracle LEAD him to it, if we're to believe the glowy eyes and sparkly trails he used to get there were caused by the Oracle.

And how did it even know Optimus WOULD go through with its plan? For all it knew, Optimus could've only gone through with it so far as to cure himself and his crew, kill Megatron, and liberate the captured sparks. Being the scientific guy he was, he might have wanted everything back to normal so that they could properly investigate their new bodies and the repercussions it brought, BEFORE going through with the formatting. It had no idea Optimus was the right one for it, since it's clear it picked him BEFORE they even met.

I'm sorry, but I still call this a plot hole; the Oracle had ample time and resources to convince someone to perform the formatting, and it waited until the world was on the brink of destruction and a group of Transformers it had never directly encountered before and had no idea how they'd be receptive to its idea came. And if this is how the writers justify doing their "technorganic balance" aesop, then the show is much more badly written than we thought it was.

[Sparky Prime]

The internal DNA scanners were used for offworld missions and for modes needed on those missions, not for alt modes on Cybertron itself.

I have to agree with Synjo here... It doesn't make sense to give everyone on Cybertron an internal DNA scanner when not every Cybertronian would be going on offworld missions, or even necessarily offworld missions that would require obtaining a beast mode. I think it's also worth noting that Nightscream said they junked the stasis pods due to internalizing the DNA scanners, which really doesn't make sense either. The primary use of stasis pods was to keep the crew (or criminal's in Protoform X's case) in stasis until they were dropped off at a planet, not just to use the DNA scanners. And we saw the Axalon, Darksyde and even Depthcharge's Star Hopper were equipped with DNA scanners as well. There was really no reason to needlessly equip everyone with a DNA scanner when their ships already had them for those that might actually put them to use.

As for Rattrap's comment about not being recognized because of the "fur coats", I'd have to think it'd make more sense if Cybertron anticipated some of their exploration crews would be returning still with beast modes.

Was it waiting for Optimus?

The Oracle did declare: "At long last, a receptive Spark!" when it first appeared to the Maximals, suggesting such a spark is extremely rare among Transformers. It's possible that it had to wait for Optimus specifically for that reason.

And yeah, Beast Machines was full of continuity problems.

[SynjoDeonecros]

The internal DNA scanners were used for offworld missions and for modes needed on those missions, not for alt modes on Cybertron itself.

I have to agree with Synjo here... It doesn't make sense to give everyone on Cybertron an internal DNA scanner when not every Cybertronian would be going on offworld missions, or even necessarily offworld missions that would require obtaining a beast mode. I think it's also worth noting that Nightscream said they junked the stasis pods due to internalizing the DNA scanners, which really doesn't make sense either. The primary use of stasis pods was to keep the crew (or criminal's in Protoform X's case) in stasis until they were dropped off at a planet, not just to use the DNA scanners. And we saw the Axalon, Darksyde and even Depthcharge's Star Hopper were equipped with DNA scanners as well. There was really no reason to needlessly equip everyone with a DNA scanner when their ships already had them for those that might actually put them to use.

As for Rattrap's comment about not being recognized because of the "fur coats", I'd have to think it'd make more sense if Cybertron anticipated some of their exploration crews would be returning still with beast modes.

There's also the fact that, if they had created DNA scanners for offworld organic planet exploration, they clearly were interested in learning more about organics, and would have likely kept a record or sample center of all of the DNA their explorers used for their beast modes.

Plus, as I said, how do they purge these modes between missions? I highly doubt that they'd send one crew to one planet for survey, and that's it; they'd have to switch out modes for various planets, especially planets with organics not compatible with their current forms. Where's the technology for that? If we look at all of the efforts Megs had trying to remove his beast mode, it seems like, for the most part, he's trying to cobble together such a device - something that shouldn't be necessary, if a beast mode purger existed, already. Yes, I know Megs' beast mode was altered beyond what any Cybertronian really thought was possible, with the DNA scanner, so he'd have to tweak the device to make a more thorough purge, but we get no indication that such a device even EXISTED, let alone that he used it.

Was it waiting for Optimus?

The Oracle did declare: "At long last, a receptive Spark!" when it first appeared to the Maximals, suggesting such a spark is extremely rare among Transformers. It's possible that it had to wait for Optimus specifically for that reason.

And yeah, Beast Machines was full of continuity problems.

Hmm, the only way that could make even remotely sense is if it chose Optimus because of the changes done to his body/spark from being in contact with Prime's "Matrix-boosted" spark...which still makes little sense, as while I can see a faint resonance from the merging being left on his spark after the virus, the virus seemed to purge ALL physical traces of Prime's influence from him. Then again, how the virus did THAT is still a mystery to me, since Primal's "Optimal" body wasn't his own original one...it's kinda like the issues I have with everyone but Bunnie being de-roboticized in the Sonic comic, with Bunnie being left out because her robotic parts were replaced and thus not her own roboticized ones, yet Snivley and Eggman were de-roboticized, despite THEIR bodies not being their originals.

[Mako Crab]

If we look at all of the efforts Megs had trying to remove his beast mode, it seems like, for the most part, he's trying to cobble together such a device - something that shouldn't be necessary, if a beast mode purger existed, already. Yes, I know Megs' beast mode was altered beyond what any Cybertronian really thought was possible, with the DNA scanner, so he'd have to tweak the device to make a more thorough purge, but we get no indication that such a device even EXISTED, let alone that he used it.

Don't forget the quantum surge or the fact that a Transmetal then further augmented himself by mingling with G1 Megatron's spark. The fact that Megatron had been attempting to purge his beast mode suggests that there was a method for doing so before, and that it hadn't worked. Otherwise it wouldn't have been such a big deal. Honestly, if he would have just tagged himself with some of his "De-Evolution" gas, he could be back in his original BW body (as evidenced from all the Maximals) and then a simple removal tool would've taken care of the rest. I can only imagine that he wanted to retain the Transmetal armor, but wanted to get rid of the beast mode. In which case... uh... why not just scan a new form? Seems pretty commonplace for most TFs. At any rate, Megatron did develop a working method to purge his beast mode, but his diagnostic drone (under the orders of Tankorr) rigged it to fail.

[Dominic]

I think there was something about the easiest way to remove a beast mode, (spark transfer), being too dangerous for Megatron's liking. The virus was lethal over time, so I can see not wanting to douse one's self in that.

"At long last, a receptive Spark!"

Actually, I think the line is, "At long last, the receptive Spark!", implying that Primal was the only one. This gets into the whole "cosmic destiny" wankery that I dislike to much in modern TF.


The problem with Synjo's question here is that it hinges on exactly what DNA is, and how it was (mis) defined throughout the Beast era.

Robots would not have DNA as we understand it. But, Megatron mentions Dinobot having DNA in a season one episode, and possible a season 3 episode. "Beast Machines" took it a step further when implying that *fossils* had DNA. This is, put simply, a deomonstration of the kind of ignorance that justifies all manner of tyranny. (A first grade could have told the writers that fossils are rocks shaped like bones/leaves/whatever, not actual remains. Rocks do not have DNA.)

The term was defined consistently wrongly throughout the Beast era, including BWII, which makes the exact purpose and function of DNA pretty hard to determine.


Stupid post hoc explanation (that would only partially count even if it came from an official source): Whatever organic elements let on Cybertron were not useful for the Oracle's plan. Maybe the DNA (whatever the hell that means in this context), was damaged. Maybe the oracle wanted DNA from an early evolutionary stage, (hence the need to use primitive earth elements).

Dom
-gonna post comehting relating to Cybertron that kind of relates to this.

[SynjoDeonecros]

There has been DNA found in fossils, before, so with that bit of information about DNA, at least, they did their research (if it didn't, then how did Dinobot, Terrorsaur and Megatron get their beast modes in Beast Wars? They HAD to have scanned SOME DNA from the dino fossils they used - and they WERE fossils, by that time, since there's no way those bones would've been still "fresh" during the time of proto-sapiens and modern animal ancestors).

And the presence of Nightscream shatters your theory that the DNA on Cybertron was not useful to the Oracle's plans; he scanned a Cybertronian bat fossil, gained its beast mode, and was reformatted by Primal into a technorganic like them. That seems to indicate that the organics on Cybertron WERE viable for the Oracle's plans.

The requirement of Optimus for the plan, though, seems like the linchpin to this whole thing, and a very poorly-explained linchpin, to boot. Why was he the only "receptive spark" needed for the plan? What made him so special? The only thing I can think of is that, when he took Prime's spark into himself while Prime was being repaired, and underwent his transformation, his own spark was altered not only by the power of Prime's, but by the Matrix of Leadership that Prime's spark was connected to as its bearer, at the time. Thing is, they don't explain that, at all, so it's kind of a confusing plot point/hole.

As for Megs, you remember things right for him; he did reject transferring his spark to a new body, out of fear of its vulnerability during the transfer, and the virus was likely not something he'd want to get hit with, himself. However, as I said before, there had to be existing tech for purging the acquired beast mode of an offworld explorer from their system, on Cybertron, and while his body WAS altered beyond the scope of what anyone likely thought possible in the confines of the scanner's programming, there's no reason to believe that those purgers COULDN'T have done some good; it just seemed like, after Megs unleashed the virus, he started hacking off fleshy bits he didn't like.

[Dominic]

Do you have a link re: DNA being in fossils? I was under the impression that fossils would, by definition, have no DNA. I know there have been semi-intact remains found, (mammoths and some other relatively late mammals being common, and I think some harrosaur bits), but those were not fossils. In "Beast Machines", they explicitly said "fossils". Of course, there is no reason to assume that the writers were using the term "fossil" correctly.

"Beast War" misused the term DNA. It is an organic compound existing at a sub-cellular level. Robots would not have it. Even if the meaty covering they wore during "Beast Wars" had DNA, it would not be practical to clone a TF using it. In "Beast Wars II", I am pretty sure the term DNA scanning was use in reference to taking vehicle modes as well. In G1, nobody talked about DNA scanning. They scanned shapes that they could contorl into. Even the meaty coverings, (which I would have assumed were synthetic), of "Beast Wars" would not require DNA from a specimen that was scanned.


My post-hoc, (and I specified it was stupid), theory could still incorporate Nightscream. The DNA, (or whatever), he scanned would have been useful in a tactical sense. But, it would have been less valuable as the basis for restoring evolving life to a planet if the species of bat he scanned had hit an evolutionary brick-wall. The "young" DNA from ancient Earth would have had room to support growth and change. (Again, even if an official source pitched that idea, it would only be semi-credible, as it is clearly post-hoc....and stupid.)


Optimus being the "the receptive spark" was likely just a function of him being part of the Optimus line, with a dose of "wow, cosmic destiny" crappery thrown in. Many of the worst cliches in TF pre-date the Beast Years, if not the franchise as a whole. But, damned if they did not take root about 10 years back.


Dom
=and this is why my regard for the Beast Era had declined so much.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Do you have a link re: DNA being in fossils? I was under the impression that fossils would, by definition, have no DNA. I know there have been semi-intact remains found, (mammoths and some other relatively late mammals being common, and I think some harrosaur bits), but those were not fossils. In "Beast Machines", they explicitly said "fossils". Of course, there is no reason to assume that the writers were using the term "fossil" correctly.

"Beast War" misused the term DNA. It is an organic compound existing at a sub-cellular level. Robots would not have it. Even if the meaty covering they wore during "Beast Wars" had DNA, it would not be practical to clone a TF using it. In "Beast Wars II", I am pretty sure the term DNA scanning was use in reference to taking vehicle modes as well. In G1, nobody talked about DNA scanning. They scanned shapes that they could contorl into. Even the meaty coverings, (which I would have assumed were synthetic), of "Beast Wars" would not require DNA from a specimen that was scanned.


My post-hoc, (and I specified it was stupid), theory could still incorporate Nightscream. The DNA, (or whatever), he scanned would have been useful in a tactical sense. But, it would have been less valuable as the basis for restoring evolving life to a planet if the species of bat he scanned had hit an evolutionary brick-wall. The "young" DNA from ancient Earth would have had room to support growth and change. (Again, even if an official source pitched that idea, it would only be semi-credible, as it is clearly post-hoc....and stupid.)


Optimus being the "the receptive spark" was likely just a function of him being part of the Optimus line, with a dose of "wow, cosmic destiny" crappery thrown in. Many of the worst cliches in TF pre-date the Beast Years, if not the franchise as a whole. But, damned if they did not take root about 10 years back.


Dom
=and this is why my regard for the Beast Era had declined so much.

http://naturalselection.0catch.com/File ... eddna.html
http://www.biologynews.net/archives/200 ... ystal.html

Two articles about it, with the second one being about a new technique for extracting it.

And while I do agree that they may have misused the term "DNA" in relation to the robots (the Dinobot clones being a good example), I think you need to go back and brush up on your biological and evolutionary sciences. "Evolutionary brick wall"? The hell? I don't think Evolution is like a maze you can walk through, with thousands of dead ends but only one way out...

Oh, and the DNA scanners weren't mentioned in G1, because they were invented AFTER the Great War ended; they didn't HAVE the technology to talk about it. The closest they had was Pretender technology (which is theorized to have developed into the DNA scanners, but are not the same thing).

Synjo
- Wonders if you have actually seen any of the franchises we're discussing, here...