Sparky Prime wrote:Dominic wrote:I get your point. You are saying that a show having some prinicple beyond "giant robots" is preachy by virtue of the fact it is about more than giant robots. I get it.
With respect, I don't believe you do get Synjo's point. It's not that BM was preachy because it had a "message" beyond "giant fighting robots", rather it's that the "message" was what everything in the show revolves around that made it preachy. In other words, there was too much of a focus on said "message", to the point that it corrupted other elements of the show, such as the characterization.
PRECISELY! As I keep on saying, how evil the villains are has NO BEARING on how preachy a show is, but how the message in it is incorporated into the show and how it's presented to the viewers; I have no problem with a show having a moral, or trying to incorporate that moral into their episodes, but it gets into preachy territory when a) the message being presented is given too much focus, drowning out any character development or other minor dilemmas the arc was dealing with in lieu of a big conflict tailor-made for telling the message, b) the characters spend too much time harping on the message and trying to convince each other, their enemies, and the viewer that their viewpoint is right, and c) the actions of the characters are dictated by the message to the point where they really can't do ANYTHING without it being used to further the goals of the message. Instead of incorporating the message into the storyline, the message BECOMES the storyline, and it doesn't matter how the CHARACTERS are portrayed, just as long as all of the focus, all of the story elements, and all of the effort in the show is put into getting the message out, and making sure everyone got it.
Now that I think about it, Beast Wars dabbled in quite a few morals, of its own; it explored the concepts of loyalty and whether "the greater good" can be achieved through atrocious acts, it dealt with political corruption and prejudice, and it itself delved a little into environmentalism and whether we have the right to experiment in the natural order of things. Unlike Beast Machines, though, these were dealt with SUBTLY, using the inner struggles of individual characters to portray these messages, and deconstructing them through character development; "Law of the Jungle" was actually, in my opinion, a great look into the environmentalism aesop, using Tigatron's loss of Snowstalker and his connection to the wild to explore the damage to nature and innocence war can bring, and whether the defeat of the enemy is worth it. It uses these messages as a way of giving the characters development in their personalities and purpose, and thus you could understand and relate to them, better, as a result.
With Beast Machines, though, the message isn't used to advance ANY character's development; it's just there to cause conflict. We can't relate to the message, because the message isn't being associated with any character - it's just there, and it's being spoonfed to us forcefully by pointless diatribes by the faction leaders. The message does not supplement the story or the characters, it IS the story, and all the events and characters in the show are forced to conform to it, not the other way around; as you said yourself, the Vehicons' only real defining trait, other than Jetstorm (who, by your own admission, is little more than a sadistic psychopath, PRECISELY THE SAME CHARACTER TYPE YOU ACCUSE THE PREDACONS OF BEING, AND PRECISELY THE CHARACTER TYPE YOU CLAIM TO HATE AND MAKE THE SHOW PREACHY) is their blind loyalty: loyalty to Megatron himself, loyalty to his ideals, and loyalty to his claim to Cybertron. Not only are they DEFINED by this loyalty, but that loyalty is revolved around Megatron and his ideals; in anyone's book, that makes them more vapid than the Predacons, as you're comparing a bunch of unambitious, droning yes-men to a group of outlaws who scheme, betray, and feud between each other, to achieve their own personal goals and ambitions. I don't see anyone clamoring over Thrust and his monotonic blind loyalty that's his only character trait more than they are Waspinator, a woobie who only wants a little respect and breathing space between being blown up, and having the worst luck imaginable getting either.
Hell, again, WHY was Megatron so keen on having "technological perfection"? What was his motivation for achieving that goal? We know what his motivation was for stealing the Golden Disk and trying to change history in Beast Wars - he agreed with his fellow Predacons that they're getting a bad deal out of the peace Cyberton had achieved under their Maximal "overlords", but was too impatient to wait for the opportune moment to strike and build up the Preds' resources for that strike, in the meantime. BM Megs? No clue why he suddenly hated his beast mode and all organics, or why he felt free will was stupid and against the nature of a mechanical society. That's part of the reason why I compare BM with Captain Planet; we don't know why the eco-villains pollute other than for the sake of polluting, we don't know any motivations they have for doing that; we're never told what their motives are, for their penchant for polluting, just as we're never told why Megatron wants to achieve his "technological perfection".
That's the only explanation I can think of for why you're so insistent that evil villain = preachy show; villains that are evil for no reason or personal motivation is a mark of a preachy show. What you're not getting is that that ONLY works if the show has a message that forms the basis of the show, and the villains are meant to represent the opposing side of the message; a show with no moral message that has a stock villain that kills randomly for no other reason but to kill, isn't preachy because there's no message being presented for the villain to represent. The villains of Captain Planet weren't preachy, because they polluted for the sake of polluting, but because they represented the "pollution is bad" side of the environmental message Captain Planet was based on, and needed to pollute for the sake of polluting to show how evil pollution itself was; in other words, it's not "the show is preachy, because the villains are being evil to be evil", it's "the show is preachy, because the evil act the villains are performing are evil because the villains are doing it". And with Beast Machines, Megs and the Vehicons not having any motive for wanting to purge organics and free will from Cybertron and touting about it on and on nearly every time they open their mouths falls into that category: their side is wrong, and we need them to do bad things to show how wrong their side is. Even if we DID get a reason for why he wanted to do that, it would make little difference; we'd be able to UNDERSTAND his position, but he's STILL being forced to do evil things to show how wrong and abhorrent his position in the debate is, and that makes the show preachy.
For the "tl;dr" crowd, here's the summary: a message in a show is fine with me, but ONLY if it's used as a supplement to the story, and not the focus; the moment the message becomes the driving force of the show and starts conforming the actions, motivations, and dialog of the characters to pushing it on viewers, it becomes preachy, and I hate it. It doesn't matter how "evil" the characters are, or what their personalities are, if what they're doing is being dictated by the message of the show, if they keep on touting about the message and performing deeds that are meant to show how good or evil their position in the message is, regardless of the reason or IF there's a reason, it's preachy. And that's what Beast Machines does: it takes the debate over technology vs. nature and instrumentality vs. free will, puts it as the main focus of the show, and forces both heroes and villains alike to do everything in their power to convince the viewers their position in the debate is right and the other side is wrong.