Beast Wars - The Ascending trade paperback

[Onslaught Six]

And that's half the point I've been trying to make about the Ascending et al. That stuff? That's interesting! It's not what happened in BWII or Neo, but I don't care because that's actually *intriguing.* Focus the comic on *that!* Not all of this inconsequential shit going on in prehistoric Earth just so we can see Rhinox for two panels.

In fact, shit, they could have even *done that!* Show me all that stuff going on on Cybertron as the focus. What? They want Rhinox? Here's a whole page full of Rhinox! Now back to stuff that matters.

[Sparky Prime]

Perhaps I'm not getting through--I've always envisioned that prior to the full development of the virus, Megatron was doing other attacks.

I think it's more how you were phrasing it... You seemed to be saying 'this happened' rather than 'this is what I envision happening before the virus'. But still, if Megatron was causing enough trouble that it forced bots to start evacuating the planet, it would be defeating the purpose he was after. I can see Megatron trying a few plots before the virus, but not causing so much trouble that they start evacuating the planet.

Not all of this inconsequential shit going on in prehistoric Earth just so we can see Rhinox for two panels.

You're still missing the point of those stories if you think it was all inconsequential stuff just to see the show characters.

[Onslaught Six]

I doubt that, since I've long established my opinion that those "reasons" you're probably saying were concocted so that they could do the cameos in the first place. And to try and please BW fanboys who hated the series anyway.

[Shockwave]

I agree with O6, we should have gotten something that was just "Meanwhile on Cybertron" or else we should have gotten a reboot. Instead what we got was "Meanwhile on Cybertron... everyone went to Earth. In the past. But they didn't interact with the bots already there. Yeah, that's the ticket."

[andersonh1]

I agree with O6, we should have gotten something that was just "Meanwhile on Cybertron" or else we should have gotten a reboot. Instead what we got was "Meanwhile on Cybertron... everyone went to Earth. In the past. But they didn't interact with the bots already there. Yeah, that's the ticket."

I still don't really understand why you and Onslaught blame the tie-in with the tv series for what you find to be a lack of quality storytelling. There's absolutely no guarantee that severing the comic storyline from the show would mean any increase in quality whatsover.

If you do a reboot, the problem of originality becomes a major issue. How do you approach Beast Wars from a new angle that isn't just a copycat/rehash of the tv show? How do you put another group of Maximals and another group of Predacons into conflict while disguised as animals and make that something we haven't seen before? Just going with different leadership styles for the faction leaders won't do it. Just putting the factions on a different planet won't do it. There has to be a completely new and different take on the concept of "Beast Wars", or else why bother? It would just be a rehash of old ideas with different characters. You might as well stick with what's already been established.

And if IDW had stuck with the same universe but put two factions on yet another planet, then again we're stuck with the problem of originality. What are we going to see that we haven't seen before? What new stories can be told? Do we want to read about Magmatron going to hunt for Energon so the Predacons can conquer Cybertron? We already saw Megatron do that. Nothing new there. Does Magmatron want to raise an army with which to conquer Cybertron? Why leave the planet, go somewhere and assume a beast mode? And the beast modes were only chosen to deal with the lethal levels of Energon in the atmosphere, so unless the two factions are on yet another planet with too much energon (again, something we've already seen), why adopt beast modes at all? Or perhaps the two groups go to a primitive planet in search of some mcguffin. Would it have any more significance to Cybertron than the Ark and the Autobots and Decepticons did? I doubt it.

If you go with a "meanwhile on Cybertron" storyline, with no contact with Earth, the problem is obvious. There's no reason for beast modes. So how do you justify the "Beast Wars" title? Not that I wouldn't enjoy a "Transformers: Pax Cybertronia" mini-series, but it wouldn't be Beast Wars.

[Onslaught Six]

If you go with a "meanwhile on Cybertron" storyline, with no contact with Earth, the problem is obvious. There's no reason for beast modes. So how do you justify the "Beast Wars" title? Not that I wouldn't enjoy a "Transformers: Pax Cybertronia" mini-series, but it wouldn't be Beast Wars.

It's set in the same era as the BW universe? That's literally all you need to do to put it in there--that common time period and the fact that they're Transformers. In fact, the very existence of BWII and Neo--two shows that take place in the same time period yet are mostly unrelated--proves that you can do this. Because it's been done!

[Shockwave]

I'm sorry, but the Geewun argument really does work here. G1 cartoon is completely different story from G1 comic. I really don't see why this same concept can't be applied to BW, even if one happens long after the other ended. I don't see why Megs and Primal leading vastly expanded armies wouldn't work better. I mean there actually were a lot of different things that weren't explored very much in the original show. Water combat was completely off the table until the last few episodes and a more expansive comic could accomodate that. It wouldn't need to be set in the same "Universe" at least not anymore than AHM is considered G1. As for the "Meanwhile on Cybertron" concept, O6 is right, it would be the events that happened while the show was going on. If they wanted to set it in the same continuity.

[andersonh1]

If you go with a "meanwhile on Cybertron" storyline, with no contact with Earth, the problem is obvious. There's no reason for beast modes. So how do you justify the "Beast Wars" title? Not that I wouldn't enjoy a "Transformers: Pax Cybertronia" mini-series, but it wouldn't be Beast Wars.

It's set in the same era as the BW universe? That's literally all you need to do to put it in there--that common time period and the fact that they're Transformers.

And what I'm arguing is no, that's not sufficient. Especially if you bring BW II and BW Neo into the equation. The whole "Maximals and Predacons with beast forms fighting each other over a macguffin" has been done three times instead of once, making a rehash of that concept even less appealing. I don't want to read that same story for a fourth time.

In fact, the very existence of BWII and Neo--two shows that take place in the same time period yet are mostly unrelated--proves that you can do this. Because it's been done!

Who said it couldn't be done? The question is, why do it? If IDW was going to go back to the well one more time, what new angle could they offer? New characters alone, or a new planet, or even a new McGuffin (anglomois, energon, whatever) don't constitute a creative use of the Beast Wars setting. Supplementing the earth-based storyline of the tv series with new characters from Cybertron, which allows us to look in on the planet in detail and avoids creating yet another pretext for Maximals and Predacons to turn into animals, is creative. It's a great idea, and far better than retreading the same old storylines and pretending that they're new and better because different characters are going through the same old motions.

I'm sorry, but the Geewun argument really does work here. G1 cartoon is completely different story from G1 comic. I really don't see why this same concept can't be applied to BW, even if one happens long after the other ended. I don't see why Megs and Primal leading vastly expanded armies wouldn't work better.

And how is that different from Megatron and Optimus Prime leading vast armies? We can read that every month from IDW's G1 books.

I mean there actually were a lot of different things that weren't explored very much in the original show. Water combat was completely off the table until the last few episodes and a more expansive comic could accomodate that.

That's a very cosmetic change though, isn't it? I'm talking about deeper story and plot ideas, not just where the characters can fight. I'm more interested in why they're fighting.

It wouldn't need to be set in the same "Universe" at least not anymore than AHM is considered G1.

Fine... so to quote myself:
"If you do a reboot, the problem of originality becomes a major issue. How do you approach Beast Wars from a new angle that isn't just a copycat/rehash of the tv show? How do you put another group of Maximals and another group of Predacons into conflict while disguised as animals and make that something we haven't seen before? Just going with different leadership styles for the faction leaders won't do it. Just putting the factions on a different planet won't do it. There has to be a completely new and different take on the concept of "Beast Wars", or else why bother? It would just be a rehash of old ideas with different characters. You might as well stick with what's already been established."

Look at it this way. We've seen Autobots and Decepticons locked in their civil war for years, all the way back to the beginning of the franchise. Simon Furman has twice found a new way to portray that basic concept. Once with Generation 2, where the massive civil war suddenly became very small in the face of the Generation 2 Decepticons empire, and once again with the stealth warfare/six step infiltration process that really played up the disguise concept behind Transformers. And then Shane McCarthy allowed the Decepticons to win the war and explored the consequences of that, something we hadn't really seen before. In both cases, the new ideas and new approach made going back to the well worth doing, because there was a new angle on the old characters and material. Nothing you or O6 are suggesting with regard to Beast Wars has offered that. Cosmetic changes like a new location or new characters are very surface level. What's the new concept behind the Beast Wars you'd like to see? What makes it new and different and interesting?

[Shockwave]

Bigger armies = more characters = more interesting story possibilities. G1 has been doing it since '84, why can't this same concept be applied to BW? I mean it kind of sounds like you're saying "G1 has cartoon, Marvel, DW, IDW and they all kick ass, but BW has the show, that's all it'll ever be and there's absolutely no reason to explore any further the end!" Uh... dude... what the heck? There's a lot that could still be done with the characters, especially the nonshow characters and the concept itself. O6 and I are arguing that that's what we want to see.

[andersonh1]

I mean it kind of sounds like you're saying "G1 has cartoon, Marvel, DW, IDW and they all kick ass, but BW has the show, that's all it'll ever be and there's absolutely no reason to explore any further the end!"

No, what I'm ultimately saying is two things:
- using the Beast Wars tv show as a jumping off point for the plot of the comics isn't a bad thing, even if the show characters only get cameos as a result
- I don't object to a reboot or new characters at all, but I do want a new concept behind the overall story, or else what's the point? Same story, different actors.

It would be much the same thing if IDW lost the Transformers license and another company picked it up. I'm not sure I'd be willing to start all over again with yet another reboot without a darn good idea behind it. Dreamwave was the first new comic in ten years, so I could forgive the blatant linking to the cartoon continuity. IDW came in with a great new concept, so it was worth starting over and investing in the characters again. It would take an awful lot to get me to do that a third time. And the same is true of Beast Wars. Either add to the story we have, or wow me with a great new concept and direction for the characters.

Uh... dude... what the heck? There's a lot that could still be done with the characters, especially the nonshow characters and the concept itself. O6 and I are arguing that that's what we want to see.

I'd love to see it myself. I just don't want to tell the same stories again with different characters. That's a cosmetic change only.