The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something."
Beast Wars, Machine Wars, Beast Machines... seeing a pattern? Coming soon: "Wars Wars"
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Onslaught Six
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by Onslaught Six »

Sparky Prime wrote:I never said the sourcebooks were the most reliable but that's about the only thing that comes close to actually explaining why the Earth would be made off limits that I can find. And according to IDW, BWII and BWNeo took place around the time the Pax Cybertronia was signed, before Beast Wars. This would also be supported by "The Gathering" and "The Ascension" given those comics take place during the Beast Wars (relatively speaking given the time travel) but clearly LioConvoy, BigConvoy and crew(s) are not off fighting some distance war, and even took the time to revert to Cybertronian forms.
Screw IDW's retrocontinuity, it's just messy and doesn't work. It's apparent at this point that there are *multiple* Beast Wars continuities (whether anyone wants to accept that or not) just as there are multiple G1 continuities, and as such, IDW's stuff only applies to IDW comics.

Earth is off limits because 'G1 happened there,' and also, at this point it's a bionuclear wasteland. Because Bob Forward wrote in at least one place, "Oh, by the way, Earth is probably a bionuclear wasteland in the current timeline." And then BWII went ahead and made Gaea a...bionuclear wasteland! Or at least made it not inhabited by humans, because the war with the TFs destroyed all of them.

In fact, BWII can be used as *great* supporting evidence against Synjo's point. LioConvoy's crew shows up on Gaea and are all, "Hey, it's Planet Gaea," and it's only *after* they arrive and see some of the human wreckage that they go, "YOU BLEW IT UP, DIDN'T YOU!"
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

Yes, I HAVE watched the Agenda (it's got Ravage in it; you'd really think I've NOT watched it a million times, already?), and I can say for a fact that they DID react with the same whimsy and disbelief you'd have if YOU saw something you thought was a myth.

As for BWII, the Transformers THERE didn't know they WERE on Earth until they saw the human wreckage, HENCE THEN NAME PLANET GAIA. And, as I said before, this took place AT THE SAME EXACT TIME AS THE ORIGINAL BW CARTOON. How is that "proof" against my position? If anything, it's proof FOR my position, as it's just more evidence of how freaking ignorant they are of their own freaking past.

Honestly, you guys are just making the same stupid, debunked arguments over and over again; just because you don't know the 50 states doesn't mean YOU CANNOT LEARN THEM. Do you? No, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO. That's all you're arguing here, that they didn't WANT to know, so that's why they're ignorant, which is BULL and NOT what I'm arguing, here; once again, THE CLEAR INDICATION WAS THAT THEY COULD NOT LEARN, WHICH IS WHY THEY WERE SO IGNORANT, NOT THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO LEARN. And Alexander's reign we have PLENTY of evidence to study to help dispel some of the myths behind it; the indication is that THE MAXIMALS HAD NO SUCH PROOF AVAILABLE TO THEM, BECAUSE IT WAS ALL LOCKED UP. You're ignoring those two simple things just to prove that they didn't WANT to learn, instead of trying to prove how they COULDN'T learn, which is the argument here.

And didn't we already establish that the Arthurian lore thing was a cover for the writers to avoid continuity issues? What better way of doing that than to SEAL UP ALL THE FREAKING RECORDS TO KEEP THE TRANSFORMERS IGNORANT?! That's obviously what they were gunning for, with what we know of the series.

And again, WHO WILL KNOW ABOUT PROTOFORM X? Seems like they had little problem covering it up WITHOUT having to seal Starscream's records, even AFTER the Colony Omicron incident. In fact, the only real loose end they had was with Depth Charge, and he was too focused on killing Rampage for him to really be much of a threat to the deception. No, I don't think Protoform X was the SOLE reason they locked Starscream's file up, and from what we know from the source and supplementary material of the Maximal Elders, they did NOT stop with just his file.

No, I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me; I've done my homework, I've studied as much as I could about this, and THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS, AT ALL. There is EVERY evidence to show that they WERE that ignorant because they COULDN'T learn, JUST AS THE WRITERS WANTED. They failed by showing us that they COULD learn.
Last edited by SynjoDeonecros on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by Onslaught Six »

SynjoDeonecros wrote:As for BWII, the Transformers THERE didn't know they WERE on Earth until they saw the human wreckage, HENCE THEN NAME PLANET GAIA. And, as I said before, this took place AT THE SAME EXACT TIME AS THE ORIGINAL BW CARTOON. How is that "proof" against my position? If anything, it's proof FOR my position, as it's just more evidence of how freaking ignorant they are of their own freaking past.
Actually, it's evidence that they didn't have that much information about Earth to begin with, seeing as they had no idea that this planet they ended up on was Earth.

Not just that, but you'd think the Maximals would have that kind of information when they crashed there in BW--and yet, despite a lot of things pointing to the contrary (although to be fair, there was that second moon), they remain unconvinced that This Planet Is Earth until Agenda happens.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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SynjoDeonecros
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

Onslaught Six wrote:
SynjoDeonecros wrote:As for BWII, the Transformers THERE didn't know they WERE on Earth until they saw the human wreckage, HENCE THEN NAME PLANET GAIA. And, as I said before, this took place AT THE SAME EXACT TIME AS THE ORIGINAL BW CARTOON. How is that "proof" against my position? If anything, it's proof FOR my position, as it's just more evidence of how freaking ignorant they are of their own freaking past.
Actually, it's evidence that they didn't have that much information about Earth to begin with, seeing as they had no idea that this planet they ended up on was Earth.

Not just that, but you'd think the Maximals would have that kind of information when they crashed there in BW--and yet, despite a lot of things pointing to the contrary (although to be fair, there was that second moon), they remain unconvinced that This Planet Is Earth until Agenda happens.
Earth is part of their past, as that's where the last leg of the Great War happened, and we already know that the Maximal Elders banned travel there, so it follows that they sealed up as much info as they could on the planet as possible, along with the other files on the Great War they locked up. Y'see? You're just PROVING my argument, here; the more we delve into this, the more evidence pops up showing that the writers intended for the information to NOT be available, and that the Maximals WERE that ignorant of their past as a result. Why didn't the Maximals recognize the planet as Earth? They didn't have the information about Earth to compare what they saw to, and they couldn't rely on the stories they remember because of their lack of veracity. Duh.
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by Onslaught Six »

Isn't that the point I was trying to make? It's like arguing with Sparky, we're somehow trying to argue the same point with each other. Somehow.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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SynjoDeonecros
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

Onslaught Six wrote:Isn't that the point I was trying to make? It's like arguing with Sparky, we're somehow trying to argue the same point with each other. Somehow.
My apologies. I thought you were trying to disprove my point by saying that it just proved that, just because they didn't know they were on Earth didn't mean they didn't know ABOUT Earth.

You're right, though; they didn't seem to know or suspect they were on Earth until the end of season 1, nor did they realize the significance of it until "Agenda". That clearly shows they had little knowledge of both Earth and TF History, something that shouldn't have happened had they had the information available as the others are arguing. Yes, there's I will concede that the second moon might've thrown them off, but with the very Earth-like animals and plant life they encountered, among other indications, you'd think they would've been a little suspicious long beforehand. The only explanation is that they didn't know much about Earth or its history, and since we already know that the Elders banned travel to Earth, it stands to reason that they'd control information on it, as well. I mean, not even Dinobot or Blackarachnia, proven scholars of the past, recognized where they were until the second moon blew up, and you'd think at least Dinobot would recognize the planet, considering how much he bitched at Megatron in the first episode for bringing them to the wrong planet.
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by Onslaught Six »

Eh. The point is, information on Earth and G1 is, at the least, semi-restricted and nonspecific. And, really, that's all we need to know.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

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SynjoDeonecros wrote:Yes, I HAVE watched the Agenda (it's got Ravage in it; you'd really think I've NOT watched it a million times, already?), and I can say for a fact that they DID react with the same whimsy and disbelief you'd have if YOU saw something you thought was a myth.
I just watched it on youtube, and I can say for a fact that no they did not.
As for BWII, the Transformers THERE didn't know they WERE on Earth until they saw the human wreckage, HENCE THEN NAME PLANET GAIA.
They never actually said they were on Earth in that entire series. It wasn't until the Robot Masters packaging for Lio Convoy that it was ever confirmed to be Earth.

But anyway, look at the Predacons reactions in the first episode. They meant to go to Earth's past but they had no idea what planet they ended up on at first because none of the "landmarks" (such as the moon, or even number of moons) they'd expected matched up. I can see the same being true for BWII given Earth had changed a lot since the last time any Transformers had been there, so they weren't sure it was even the same planet.
And, as I said before, this took place AT THE SAME EXACT TIME AS THE ORIGINAL BW CARTOON.
Not according to IDW, but either way, this is a time travel story we're talking about here. BW literally takes place in the ancient past while BWII/Neo takes place in their present.
How is that "proof" against my position? If anything, it's proof FOR my position, as it's just more evidence of how freaking ignorant they are of their own freaking past.
Because they didn't know what planet they were on? Again, Earth had changed a lot in both situations.
THE CLEAR INDICATION WAS THAT THEY COULD NOT LEARN, WHICH IS WHY THEY WERE SO IGNORANT, NOT THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO LEARN. And Alexander's reign we have PLENTY of evidence to study to help dispel some of the myths behind it; the indication is that THE MAXIMALS HAD NO SUCH PROOF AVAILABLE TO THEM, BECAUSE IT WAS ALL LOCKED UP. You're ignoring those two simple things just to prove that they didn't WANT to learn, instead of trying to prove how they COULDN'T learn, which is the argument here.
There is no possible way the Maximal Elders could possibly lock up that much history. The Great War took place over more than 4 million years. The populace would miss that big of a chunk of time. Not to mention there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest they covered up all of that history. Quite the opposite actually given we do see the Maximals know about the Ark and Nemesis and even Iacon as shown later on in Beast Machines. Not to mention we know there are still some survivors from the Great War around. In fact, we only know of one thing the Maximal Elders actually classified and that was information on Starscream.
And again, WHO WILL KNOW ABOUT PROTOFORM X? Seems like they had little problem covering it up WITHOUT having to seal Starscream's records, even AFTER the Colony Omicron incident.
You think some of the populace wouldn't be the least bit curious why a couple entire colonies disappeared? Certainly some of them would start digging to find out why. That's why the Maximal Elders would classify all information relating to Protoform X.
No, I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me; I've done my homework, I've studied as much as I could about this, and THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS, AT ALL. There is EVERY evidence to show that they WERE that ignorant because they COULDN'T learn, JUST AS THE WRITERS WANTED. They failed by showing us that they COULD learn.
If you want to be stubborn about it that's fine, but there is evidence in the show that shows they weren't as ignorant as you claim them to be, whether you want to admit it or not.
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

Onslaught Six wrote:Eh. The point is, information on Earth and G1 is, at the least, semi-restricted and nonspecific. And, really, that's all we need to know.
Exactly, and that's why I argue that the writers screwed up when they introduced Ravage in "Agenda"; I can ignore the Predacons not having the same restrictions on the info as the Maximals, if only just, since it looks like they have some gaps in their information, as well. They had a good thing going with using that information sealing as a means of keeping the Maximals and Predacons ignorant, and keeping G1 "Arthurian Lore". I could buy that, before "Agenda". My problem is, they had to screw that up by introducing survivors of the Great War, eyewitnesses to those events. After that, it doesn't matter that the records were sealed, we now know they have real, living accounts of those events available to them, and from what I've read in the comics, those survivors were NOT under any hush-up by the government or anything, which means if they wanted to, the general TF population COULD find out more about what was sealed up, if they wanted to.
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Re: The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

Sparky Prime wrote:
SynjoDeonecros wrote:Yes, I HAVE watched the Agenda (it's got Ravage in it; you'd really think I've NOT watched it a million times, already?), and I can say for a fact that they DID react with the same whimsy and disbelief you'd have if YOU saw something you thought was a myth.
I just watched it on youtube, and I can say for a fact that no they did not.
As for BWII, the Transformers THERE didn't know they WERE on Earth until they saw the human wreckage, HENCE THEN NAME PLANET GAIA.
They never actually said they were on Earth in that entire series. It wasn't until the Robot Masters packaging for Lio Convoy that it was ever confirmed to be Earth.

But anyway, look at the Predacons reactions in the first episode. They meant to go to Earth's past but they had no idea what planet they ended up on at first because none of the "landmarks" (such as the moon, or even number of moons) they'd expected matched up. I can see the same being true for BWII given Earth had changed a lot since the last time any Transformers had been there, so they weren't sure it was even the same planet.
And, as I said before, this took place AT THE SAME EXACT TIME AS THE ORIGINAL BW CARTOON.
Not according to IDW, but either way, this is a time travel story we're talking about here. BW literally takes place in the ancient past while BWII/Neo takes place in their present.
How is that "proof" against my position? If anything, it's proof FOR my position, as it's just more evidence of how freaking ignorant they are of their own freaking past.
Because they didn't know what planet they were on? Again, Earth had changed a lot in both situations.
THE CLEAR INDICATION WAS THAT THEY COULD NOT LEARN, WHICH IS WHY THEY WERE SO IGNORANT, NOT THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO LEARN. And Alexander's reign we have PLENTY of evidence to study to help dispel some of the myths behind it; the indication is that THE MAXIMALS HAD NO SUCH PROOF AVAILABLE TO THEM, BECAUSE IT WAS ALL LOCKED UP. You're ignoring those two simple things just to prove that they didn't WANT to learn, instead of trying to prove how they COULDN'T learn, which is the argument here.
There is no possible way the Maximal Elders could possibly lock up that much history. The Great War took place over more than 4 million years. The populace would miss that big of a chunk of time. Not to mention there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest they covered up all of that history. Quite the opposite actually given we do see the Maximals know about the Ark and Nemesis and even Iacon as shown later on in Beast Machines. Not to mention we know there are still some survivors from the Great War around. In fact, we only know of one thing the Maximal Elders actually classified and that was information on Starscream.
And again, WHO WILL KNOW ABOUT PROTOFORM X? Seems like they had little problem covering it up WITHOUT having to seal Starscream's records, even AFTER the Colony Omicron incident.
You think some of the populace wouldn't be the least bit curious why a couple entire colonies disappeared? Certainly some of them would start digging to find out why. That's why the Maximal Elders would classify all information relating to Protoform X.
No, I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me; I've done my homework, I've studied as much as I could about this, and THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS, AT ALL. There is EVERY evidence to show that they WERE that ignorant because they COULDN'T learn, JUST AS THE WRITERS WANTED. They failed by showing us that they COULD learn.
If you want to be stubborn about it that's fine, but there is evidence in the show that shows they weren't as ignorant as you claim them to be, whether you want to admit it or not.
First of all, we only know of the one colony, and from what I've been able to research, that's the ONLY colony that was lost. It would be fairly easy for them to cover it up with some bullcrap story to placate them. After all, as I've been saying for a while, NO ONE KNEW OF PROTOFORM X OUTSIDE OF THE AXALON TEAM, THE MAXIMAL ELDERS, AND DEPTH CHARGE. They could've EASILY covered this up without resorting to sealing up Starscream's file, and they could EASILY deny the file had anything to do with the experiment.

Second, are you STILL flaunting the IDW sourcebooks? Those things are CRAP! There's a list of errors for that thing on Teletraan 1 as long as the credits for the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings trilogy. Besides, as Onslaught Six and I have already discussed, there were a lot of OTHER ways they could've told it was Earth, like the very EARTH-LIKE creatures they made into their beast modes. I'll concede to the second moon throwing them off, but still...

Of COURSE they'd know about Iacon, since it's a city on CYBERTRON, WHERE THEY LIVE. It's probably a really nice tourist destination, from what Cheetor says. Earth's part in G1? They've already forbidden travel there, so what makes you think they didn't go farther with that? As the writers THEMSELVES have said before, Earth and G1 were Arthurian Lore to them, a bunch of vague events that they don't know much about. They may have heard about the Ark, but from how they react to it and how much of it they get WRONG, it's clear it's in a half-legend state that they're not sure of. No, they couldn't lock up ALL knowledge of the Great War, but remember, the Great War was going on on CYBERTRON during those millions of years, so all they really needed to do is lock up as much info about the Ark/Nemesis launch and the last half-century or so of the Great War, the timeframe where the war RELOCATED TO EARTH.

You're just repeating your same arguments over and over again, denying and denying the obvious facts, and for what? THE WRITERS THEMSELVES have said that the Great War and Earth was Arthurian lore, near-mythical, and their writing up until Ravage's appearance for the most part reflect that. Turn a blind eye from it, if you want, but frankly, I have to wonder if you're watching the same cartoon that we are.
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