Megatron Was Right...

"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something."
Beast Wars, Machine Wars, Beast Machines... seeing a pattern? Coming soon: "Wars Wars"

Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby BWprowl » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:07 pm

andersonh1 wrote:Now, if you're saying that the show never explained why the planet became a mix of metal and grass at the end, with buildings that looked like giant shrubbery, then you have a point. It wasn't explained why we got that instead of, say, islands of modern technology surrounded by a sea of plant life.

The explanation's pretty simple, actually: Mainframe ran out of money. ;)
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby andersonh1 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:03 am

Onslaught Six wrote:Similar motivational things are present throughout BM. It's one of the series' biggest flaws. BM works so much better if you actually don't take BW into account. >.>


Motivations aren't the only major change. The afterlife goes from the Matrix for Maximals and the Inferno/Pit for Predacons in Beast Wars to just the Allspark where all sparks end up in Beast Machines. That's a major difference between the two series that's hard to reconcile.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Onslaught Six » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:08 am

...No, it isn't, because the whole Matrix/Pit thing was only ever mentioned in interviews and never made it into the show. At the very least, the Matrix concept was there and mentioned--Rhinox went into it to get out Primal's spark in Coming Of The Fuzors--but the Pit was never referenced in a literal context. Therefore, all we can really do is assume that the Matrix and the Allspark are the same thing.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.


People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby andersonh1 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:11 am

Onslaught Six wrote:...No, it isn't, because the whole Matrix/Pit thing was only ever mentioned in interviews and never made it into the show.


Well, you do hear Terrorsaur and Megatron saying things like "By the Inferno!" or "By the Pit!", so the characters reference it within the show itself, even if we never physically see it.

At the very least, the Matrix concept was there and mentioned--Rhinox went into it to get out Primal's spark in Coming Of The Fuzors--but the Pit was never referenced in a literal context. Therefore, all we can really do is assume that the Matrix and the Allspark are the same thing.


That's certainly reasonable, given that the Matrix and the Allspark clearly exist based on what we saw onscreen, while the Pit has only been referenced. Perhaps the Predacons' collective belief is wrong, who can say?
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby onslaught86 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:22 am

But the show does explain it. If you follow the Oracle (and Primal's) statements, it can be surmised that the Oracle wants to restore the organic to Cybertron, because apparently it feels that the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of the technological. "Seek the balance" it tells Primal at one point, implying that the current state of the planet is not 'balanced'. As Primal later says, when he finally wakes up and abandons the fanatacism he had during the first season, the Oracle never intended organic to replace the technological, but that both co-exist.


Yes, if there's one thing I do appreciate about the show, it's the message that extremism is the true failing of any philosophy. Which is, of course, surprisingly layered for what's technically a kids' show.

The problem is that it's never at any point explained why a balance between technology and nature is needed at all, much less it being an advantage. Cybertron did fine without any major natural influence for the past several million years, what does it need this for now? The angle that it was originally a planet populated with natural life does intrigue, since whatever the Oracle is or is influenced by, it must be separate from the Transformers and their established origins. Brings to mind the surprisingly similar assistant to Primacron from the oddball G1 episode Call of the Primitives.

I've also been fond of the theory that the organic aspect will result in shorter life-spans, and thus more knowledge being brought back to the Allspark. The sort of seemingly indifferent action likely to be a primary goal of a deity, especially one that created such long-lived children..

The motivation that's unclear is Megatron's. His hatred for organics is a character shift that comes out of left field, given that he never expressed any such feelings during the Beast Wars. Some support for his newfound fanatical hatred would have been helpful. If it was an effect of having G1 Megatron's spark in contact with his own for so long, then a line of dialogue to explain that would have been sufficient. But it's never explained, and the audience is just left to accept his motivation as a matter of fact.


Again with the theory - with Megs falling off the shuttle in transwarp, it's likely that his organic components could have caused him extreme pain with their exposure to the vacuum of space. Again something and could and should have been shown in the show with a single scene, but an interesting thought all the same.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Dominic » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:49 am

I've also been fond of the theory that the organic aspect will result in shorter life-spans, and thus more knowledge being brought back to the Allspark. The sort of seemingly indifferent action likely to be a primary goal of a deity, especially one that created such long-lived children..


There is a line from Primal about this in the last episode actually.

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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby andersonh1 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:44 pm

onslaught86 wrote:I've also been fond of the theory that the organic aspect will result in shorter life-spans, and thus more knowledge being brought back to the Allspark. The sort of seemingly indifferent action likely to be a primary goal of a deity, especially one that created such long-lived children..


I think Beast Machines did indeed state that the Oracle was on what would become Cybertron before the Transformers were. So it certainly predates them. What's interesting is its connection to the Allspark and the Transformers race, and the way they treat it like a deity. But did it create them in the first place? I'm not sure the show ever actually maintains that it did, though I could be forgetting something.

Again with the theory - with Megs falling off the shuttle in transwarp, it's likely that his organic components could have caused him extreme pain with their exposure to the vacuum of space. Again something and could and should have been shown in the show with a single scene, but an interesting thought all the same.


I hadn't thought of that. Would that be enough to turn him into such a fanatical crusader against anything organic though? I can see him bearing some resentment for his weakness and what it had done to him perhaps, but would that lead to his hatred for everything non-mechanical?

I can see your theory being the starting point for his attitude perhaps, but not the sole reason for it. It doesn't seem extreme enough.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Onslaught Six » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:22 pm

http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-new ... rg-165509/

Was reading this interview with Isenberg about Animated, but then they asked him about BM, and something inneresting showed up. Specifically:

TFW2005: Beast Machines took a vastly different approach to the Transformers universe than anything before or since. How do you feel about that, and looking back, what would you have done differently?

Marty Isenberg: Mostly, I just didn't want to repeat myself by doing things on Animated that I'd already done on Beast Machines. As for what I would have done differently, it's hard to second guess yourself in retrospect. I do wish we had more time to develop the show up front and more access to episodes of the original Transformers show (this was in the days before DVD box sets), or at least access to a Transformers expert like Derrick so we could have gotten more of the Cybertronian names right off the bat (i.e., The Oracle vs. Vector Sigma, Cybertropolis vs. Iacon).


Cybertropolis thing isn't very interesting AFAIK, but this pretty much confirms that The Oracle was intended to be Vector Sigma in the first place. Huh.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.


People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Sparky Prime » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:43 pm

onslaught86 wrote:I've also been fond of the theory that the organic aspect will result in shorter life-spans, and thus more knowledge being brought back to the Allspark.

I don't know that a shorter life-span would necessarily mean more knowledge is brought back to the Allspark. Certainly the sparks would be returning faster but it'd also mean less time for the individual sparks to obtain knowledge.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Onslaught Six » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:56 pm

That's if the Allspark/Primus doesn't just want a current update on what's going on in the world right now.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.


People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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