Megatron Was Right...

"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something."
Beast Wars, Machine Wars, Beast Machines... seeing a pattern? Coming soon: "Wars Wars"

Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby BWprowl » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:18 pm

Sparky Prime wrote: Not to mention these technologies are not nearly as complicated to implement as reformatting the entire planet and learning about agriculture in order to provide crops for the entire planet.

I don't see where it said they would have to grow crops, I've always taken the whole thing as the idea '86 said about making each TF self-sustaining. I mean, we only saw the TO Maximals eat food once, and it didn't turn out terribly well, and I don't think we ever caught them fueling up on Energon (PERIOD!), so who's to say how it works? But for a group of renegades forced underground who wouldn't have a lot of access to energy reserves, the Maximals seemed to do quite well for themselves, thus supporting the idea that TO TFs are self-sufficient.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby onslaught86 » Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:45 am

I'm sure they *could* have fit in all that stuff about why, and gotten into the ins and outs of that, but then there'd probably have been no room for all those kickass Vehicon fight scenes, and interaction between the generals, and stuff like that. Plus, it probably wouldn't have made for a very entertaining and marketable series.


Well, not so much. All it would've taken was 'one line'. Oracle says "Your new techno-organic bodies are self-sustaining" and it's blatantly there to carry on from.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Sparky Prime » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:11 am

Just because we never saw them refueling with energon, that doesn't necessarily mean that their TO bodies are totally self-sufficient. For all we know they could have refueled between episodes. Or even that they're just capable of going a long time between refuelings. Botanica I might see being self-sufficient if she can get enough energy through photosynthesis and/or nutrients in soil seeing as she is a plant. But the other Maximals, I just see no reason how or why their bodies would be self-sufficient. Their energy would need to be coming from somewhere, something. Somehow I doubt the Oracle reformatted them with power generators that never need refueled/recharged. Energy cannot be created from nothing (Laws of Thermodynamics). That should mean they'd still need an outside source to refuel/re-energize. They obviously believed they still needed an outside source of fuel as well as eating the fruit suggested, although that organic fruit obviously wasn't compatible with their TO bodies.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Dominic » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:35 am

In theory, the Oracle could have remade the Maximals with finite internal power sources. They might last for years, but like a battery, there will only be so much power stored in there. (Sleeping would still be necessary for neurological health.)

The problem with reworking the planet is that, well, it gets messy and bloody. Now, let us assume that the re-born TFs in the last episode were the same individuals who Megatron de-sparked during his take-over. (They may also have had their minds wiped by the process, we do not know. The Maximals had their original bodies to return to, and we do not know how Skir would answer the question, "What it is like to be a bot?", so this question has to have a speculative answer.)

Back to the population: Do you think any of them would have signed on for the Oracle's plan of their own free-will? The Pax Cybertronia would likely have imploded. Maximals and Predacons would fragment into new factions. (For example, some more aggressive Predacons might like having teeth and claws, and thus go with the Oracle. More refined Predacons might go against it. Maximals would schism along similar lines.) Given the role free-will had in the series, this probably would have been an issue.

Reworking infrastructure is messy and involved work. (Simple grid-work in my area is likely to cause black-outs in the wee hours of Tuesday morning, meaning I have to leave my shade open to wake up with the sun.) Atomic power might be an option. But, there is the question of waste. Solar and hydro power are clean and unlikely to run out any time soon, but they are also "fixed" in the sense that the yield is not going up or down. (A mill can only work as well as the nearby river flows.) Yes, more efficient machines can stretch kilowatt hours, and batteries can store power. But, if you use more than you can harvest, eventually you will run out. And, TFs use large amounts of fuel, even the post-upgrade Cybertronians.

And, that is why it would be easier to restructure Cybertron. The planet had just about collapsed. The Techno-Organic war left the planet with no population and little infrastructure. (Those vehicon bodies would need massive over-hauls to be used for anything other than military use.)

The "balance" idea comes in at this point. The reformatting changes the planet and its inhabitants, giving them more options for fuel. But, we have to assume that the techno-organic TFs are likely to die at some point, no matter how careful and peaceful they may be. And, as we know from biology, this may help with natural evolution. (Think of it this way, aside from the fighting art of "transforming", most evolutions for TFs required them to interact with other species, be it Quintessons, humans, nebulans....)

Balance also factors in with the organization of the civilization. Megatron's over-centralizing did not work. (Think of what happened in "Fires of the Past" or "Weak Component".) But, as seen in "Forbidden Fruit"(?), extreme decentralizing did not work either. Primal started off as an organic extremist, and nearly died for it. By the second season, he had moved his extreme faction towards a relative center.

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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Sparky Prime » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:53 pm

Dominic wrote: And, TFs use large amounts of fuel, even the post-upgrade Cybertronians.

Do we actually have any way to gauge how much energon the Maximals/Predacons use? Really I can only think of two times in Beast Wars we even actually saw them refueling. Once when Rhinox was infected with the energon discharge virus and another when Megatron was 'sleeping' as a trap to show Rampage he would not be caught unaware. Given Megatron comment that the Aubobots/Decepticons were "energon guzzlers" it would suggest the Maximals/Predacons use significantly less energon.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Onslaught Six » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:38 am

It seems that the BWTFs use CR chambers to recharge, actually.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Dominic » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:05 am

I always assumed the "sleeping" in BW was more mental than physical.

I was basing the fuel consumption idea on the fact that Rattrap and a few others seem to be omnivours, not unlike bears and such. Being an omnivour tends to mean an animal eats what it can get.

I will agree that a Maximal or Predacon would eat less than a larger Autobot or Decepticon.

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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby andersonh1 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:47 am

Sparky Prime wrote:
andersonh1 wrote:In Beast Machines continuity, Cybertron was never Primus.

I'd have to disagree with you given Beast Machines is a part of the BW/G1 continuity. I'd have to point out though, that the details of the G1 in this continuity are a bit fuzzy given the writers of BW/BM took elements from both the G1 cartoon as well as the G1 comics. Primus specifically is a concept from the comics that did not exist in the cartoon.


Exactly. Beast Wars seems to have taken elements from both the cartoon and the comic, so while it's a sequel to G1, the question is which G1? Presumably one in which Primus was not Cybertron, unless we are to assume Primus has an organic core and layers upon layers of dirt and fossils over his shell. The latter could be made to fit with the comic, where Primus molded an organic asteroid into Cybertron (as you mention below), but the organic core would seem to contradict Primus himself being the core. I'm thinking of the "Primal Scream" comic cover, where Primus was seen as a giant face/computer at the center of Cybertron.

Beast Wars and Beast Machines seem to follow more easily from the G1 cartoon than the comics, Primus excepted.

Although, I'd also point out a recent retcon established Primus as a "multiversal singularity" and as such exists in all TF universes. Anyway, in the comics Primus was shown to be a part of Cybertron after he had reshaped a lifeless metallic planetoid (which he trapped himself inside to get Unicron to do the same) into Cybertron. The G1 cartoon gives us that some of Cybertron's lower levels are composed of rock/dirt. The H3 comics later added that Primus still created Cybertron in this universe, and that the Quintessons moved in afterwords to hinder the development of the Cybertronians and use them for their own personal gain.


I haven't really read any of the 3H comics, but it seems difficult to include him in the G1 cartoon continuity. It can be done, but then what do we make of his relationship with Unicron, who was not a demigod in the cartoon, but a machine created by Primacron? Unicron is also supposed to be a constant across all universes, depending on which comics you read.

I do remember the episode you're referring to. "Dweller in the Depths", was it? I've only seen it once, so I may be misremembering the title. But there were organic creatures deep within Cybertron in that episode as well as rock and dirt tunnels, I think. Which helps link nicely with Beast Machines' dirt caverns and fossil-filled chambers.

I did like the concept of the techno-organic bodies (although not the look of their robot modes) but overall I have to say I was never a fan of the idea in Beast Machines that Cybertron was once organic, or that the Maximals had to 'restore the balance' to the planet. I mean really, what was the point? The planet has gotten along just fine as a purely mechanical world for millions of years.


I'm not a big fan of the idea myself, but the show did establish it as a fact.

I think the Oracle and its intentions could have used more background explanation. It can be surmised that the Allspark was speaking through it, and that the Allspark was acting on the collected wisdom or collective guilt of the Transformers race who knew what had been done to the organic planet that Cybertron once was. Perhaps that was beyond the scope of the show to address issues like that, but it would have been interesting to pursue, far more than the repetitive Vehicon fight scenes we got.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby Sparky Prime » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:01 pm

Onslaught Six wrote:It seems that the BWTFs use CR chambers to recharge, actually.

I'd agree it's possible the CR Chamber/Tank would recharge the TF along with repairs. But what if the TF didn't need repairs, just the recharge? Doesn't make sense to me that they'd exclusively use those just for a recharge. Like the two examples I mentioned before, Rhinox was shown hooked up directly to the Axalon's systems in order to keep his energon levels up (albeit an extraordinary circumstance). Megatron on the other hand appeared to have something like an energon IV connected to his arm.
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Re: Megatron Was Right...

Postby BWprowl » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:06 pm

andersonh1 wrote:Exactly. Beast Wars seems to have taken elements from both the cartoon and the comic, so while it's a sequel to G1, the question is which G1? Presumably one in which Primus was not Cybertron, unless we are to assume Primus has an organic core and layers upon layers of dirt and fossils over his shell. The latter could be made to fit with the comic, where Primus molded an organic asteroid into Cybertron (as you mention below), but the organic core would seem to contradict Primus himself being the core. I'm thinking of the "Primal Scream" comic cover, where Primus was seen as a giant face/computer at the center of Cybertron.

See, in that continuity, I always went with the more ethereal interpretation that Primus sealed his "essence" into the asteroid, and turned it into a mechanical planet, as opposed to the planet itself actually *being* Primus. Hell, maybe the 'Asteroid' in question was actually the remains of an organic planet whose environment had long since collapsed. That would explain the fossils and the organic core, at least.
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